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Post by imtheniz on Jul 2, 2011 10:20:07 GMT -5
Here's another option, in an effort to actually complete this project and get through wrestlers quicker.
I have often used Troy Perry's TNM Export Templates, which can be found on tnmuk.com, as a base for my wrestler exports. Basically, this guy assigned about 15 different wrestling styles (brawler, spot monkey, strong style, etc), and loaded these templates with 30-50 moves that a wrestler with that style typically would perform.
If you guys don't care about every move that is preformed in a match, we could concentrate more on the finishers, cross corners, combos, and adding signature must-have moves, rather then wasting months sorting through YouTube videos.
What are your thoughts?
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Post by gentlemanjeff on Jul 2, 2011 10:43:27 GMT -5
This is WWE 2011. Just create three new worker templates--WWE High Flyer, WWE Midcarder and WWE Main Event. Assign the ten moves they all do over and over again accordingly, then add each guy's 3-5 signature moves. Take the occasional Sin Cara or Bryan Daniel, who are outside the normal WWE parameters, and make them unique.
But yeah, as a person who doesn't read the match while in progress, just template it up.
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Post by JoshiQ on Jul 2, 2011 10:47:38 GMT -5
This is WWE 2011. Just create three new worker templates--WWE High Flyer, WWE Midcarder and WWE Main Event. Assign the ten moves they all do over and over again accordingly, then add each guy's 3-5 signature moves. Take the occasional Sin Cara or Bryan Daniel, who are outside the normal WWE parameters, and make them unique. But yeah, as a person who doesn't read the match while in progress, just template it up. That's actually a pretty good idea. And as one that doesn't watch the match in progress either, I completely agree. Probably the best and easiest way to do it.
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Post by imtheniz on Jul 2, 2011 11:11:02 GMT -5
This is WWE 2011. Just create three new worker templates--WWE High Flyer, WWE Midcarder and WWE Main Event. Assign the ten moves they all do over and over again accordingly, then add each guy's 3-5 signature moves. This is both hilarious, and spot on. I would appreciate some input in picking the 10-15 moves that each template should use. But, I totally agree. This is exactly how it should be done. Assuming having a small move set doesn't negatively impact match ratings, etc. So, with that said. Let's fill these templates up with moves. Or should we make 4-5 templates instead, to diversify the different styles a bit better?
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Post by imtheniz on Jul 2, 2011 11:24:28 GMT -5
Back to determining work rate, charisma, etc...
Do you think it would be easier to rank the WWE wrestlers from 1-30 in those categories. Then, let's say John Cena is the most charismatic, and CM Punk has this highest work rate, we can work backwards in determining everyone's values.
Or maybe easier then ranking them 1-30, we can create tiers. Like, Extremely Charismatic 95-100 (John Cena, Alberto Del Rio), Very Charismatic 90-95 (Randy Orton, Christian), etc, thus helping us a great deal when debating.
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Post by imtheniz on Jul 2, 2011 11:30:00 GMT -5
Here are some rough scales below. I think they may need a little more tweaking, but it's a start. I put in some wrestlers to get the arguments started...
CHARISMA
Extremely Charismatic (95-100) John Cena Alberto Del Rio The Miz
Very Charismatic (88-94) Randy Orton Christian CM Punk
Charismatic (80-87) Sheamus Dolph Ziggler R-Truth Cody Rhodes Big Show Kane
Not Really Charismatic (72-79) Ted DiBiase Jr. Drew McIntyre
Terrible Charisma (71 and below)
WORK RATE
Incredible Worker (95-100) CM Punk Daniel Bryan
Very Good Worker (88-94) Rey Mysterio Christian Sin Cara Cody Rhodes
Average Worker (80-87) Sheamus John Cena Dolph Ziggler
Below Average Worker (72-79) The Miz Kane
Terrible Worker (71 and below) Big Show
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Post by gentlemanjeff on Jul 2, 2011 12:45:18 GMT -5
Don't disagree too much with those ratings.
I think you should compensate for being a fish out of water, style wise. Example: No one knows how to work with Sin Cara's lucha libre/ballet style, except for maybe Mysterio. I would drop Cara down to an 80-85 until he demonstrates a better grasp on the WWE style.
Of course, in Mexico he'd probably be a 95-100.
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Post by gentlemanjeff on Jul 2, 2011 12:46:41 GMT -5
How would you all rate Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels in charisma?
Default is 100, but are these guys really as charismatic as, say, Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage and Ric Flair, the very definitions of 100?
Also, Andre HAS to be a 100, right? He's not too charismatic, but he is a SPECTACLE, which is a little different. Close enough.
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Post by theimpalertmx on Jul 2, 2011 15:02:06 GMT -5
This may be a little off track but one thing about workrate in general when it comes to TNM is you can put a guy at 75 or even 70 or whatever and they can still have good matches in TNM land. One thing to focus on if you're making accurate exports is the situation the wrestler is in. You hardly ever see a ***+ match on WWE TV. Sometimes you'll get it on PPVs and you can even have ****+ matches of course. One of my biggest complaints with TNM over the years is how "good" matches end up. I think there are far too many ***** matches that one can produce between two good to great workers if you book the match a certain way. An example would be in my current fed PINNACLE I've had 4 ***** matches in 16 cards. That's crazy, ***** matches are ones you'd rate as some of the best of all-time and rarely come along, I've always felt the match ratings in TNM are too high. And this is exactly what led me to creating the rating system I explained in the work rate thread. There were far too many guys rated 90 and above in general. I go by the Wrestling Observer's criteria for a MOTYC... *** 1/2+ is where that discussion begins. So yes, I'd be surprised if you needed to use your second hand to count how many of those there are on WWE TV. Most of them will come on PPVs and there is usually at least one match that hovers around **** on every WWE PPV. Now, if you are running a different style of promotion it can differ somewhat. Let's say ROH had a 2 hour weekly TV show. That equates to 84 minutes of total TV time. Factoring in interviews and angles, about 2/3 of that time is devoted to matches (of course, you can always add 3 minutes or so if the idea is that a match goes on during the break). You'd probably get about 5 or 6 matches in on one show. One or two probably less than 10 min, a few between 10-15, and your main probably goes about 20-25 minutes tops. Ideally you'd have less matches under ** and more matches hovering around *** than you would in WWE. So the average rating of a match is probably higher, but you still aren't going to see ****+ matches every week. All of this of course operates under the assumption that because they're main product would be PPVs they'd be giving a lot of the under card guys in short matches, either with each other or with talent higher up on the card. In other words you can't expect the standard ROH DVD every week on TV... that is what you would save for the PPVs.
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Post by theimpalertmx on Jul 2, 2011 15:31:19 GMT -5
As far as charisma goes, I think you basically have to look at it as "potential heat" with everything the wrestler is given. That does mean managers and having "the look" should be factored into charisma. So yes, a guy like Andre in his time should have a very high ranking charisma. I don't know if you have to put it at 100, but it'd be close. 100 should be saved for guys who have boatloads charisma in the conventional sense AND with all the other elements they are provided. And again, at any one time there really shouldn't be more wrestlers you can count on one hand with 100 charisma. Some guys need the boost to offset a lower work rate (John Cena, Orton, pretty much every main event guy WWE has who is an average worker at best). On the current roster there is only guy who isn't considered to be "semi-retired" deserves the 100 charisma rating and even he spends most of the year sitting at home (Undertaker). I will use my ranking system again and provide some examples (of course, this is my personal opinion and looks as it is right now... that's why the Miz will be lower than he would have been 6 months ago).
S (95-99): Punk, Cena; borderline Orton and Mysterio A (90-94): The Miz, Big Show; borderline Alberto del Rio and Kane B (80-89): Santino, Christian, Dolph w/ Vickie, R-Truth, Sheamus, towards top; Barrett, Kingston, Rhodes, Bryan towards bottom; borderline Morrison and Sin Cara C (70-79): Gabriel, Slater, McIntyre towards the top; Primo, Dibiase, Zeke, Masters towards the bottom; borderline Usos, rest of Nexus D (60-69): This is where heat vacuums start to come in - such guys usually don't last at the WWE level for too long. This is probably where I'd put Great Khali. Also where most of the Divas belong. F (<59): No one this uncharismatic would probably ever be in WWE.
Like work rate, most guys are going to fall in the mid B to upper C range. Less workers are going to be found outside of these limits.
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Post by snabbit888 on Jul 2, 2011 15:32:30 GMT -5
I feel this is all going to be an endless battle. Because I for one wouldn't consider Big Show to be anywhere close to a terrible worker. I think in the end, we're all going to have our personal tweaks to what we feel each wrestler should be.
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Post by JoshiQ on Jul 2, 2011 15:39:03 GMT -5
I feel this is all going to be an endless battle. Because I for one wouldn't consider Big Show to be anywhere close to a terrible worker. I think in the end, we're all going to have our personal tweaks to what we feel each wrestler should be. That's probably true. Probably the smartest thing to do would be for someone to create the exports on their own and just let people edit them as they see fit. It would be awesome to have a roster set of WWE-2011 that is pretty close to accurate and then I'll fix anything that I think needs fixing for my own personal tastes. For the most part that's what I do with the exports I get anyway. I make sure their finisher is correct, start using them, if I see a match rating is way too high or low then I might go in and edit their workrate and charisma... But that's probably how this is going to need to turn out.
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Post by imtheniz on Jul 2, 2011 15:53:22 GMT -5
I feel this is all going to be an endless battle. Because I for one wouldn't consider Big Show to be anywhere close to a terrible worker. I think in the end, we're all going to have our personal tweaks to what we feel each wrestler should be. I agree, Big Show is not a "terrible worker". But because work rate directly correlates with match ratings, he needs to be ranked low. I can say with almost certainty that he hasn't put on a match over two stars in 2011.
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Post by theimpalertmx on Jul 2, 2011 21:09:49 GMT -5
Things are always going to come down to personal tastes. What is more important is to understand how TNM functions with certain stats. Outside of speaking to Oliver himself, which I'm sure is nearly impossible these days, the most reliable way of working things out is through rigorous testing. People who are throwing out numbers... put them into action! Take actual cards, whether it be on the screen or at house shows, and do your own simulations. Once you have a large enough sample size see if your results are what you expected them to be and post your findings. As I said, I did this with the current WWE roster on my old computer. As soon as I figure out how I want to handle TNM with my new set-up I'll show you what I got and how close to my expectations things came. I'm not suggesting they were perfect... there certainly were some surprises. Once we have a few people's interpretations it will be easier to come to a consensus on certain things. Even at that there will still be things that come down to personal preference.
All this discussion is good, however. Since Peter hasn't been around (I don't know when the last time anyone encountered him) I think it is safe to say someone has to pick up the torch because he has been the one keeping the community alive as far as exports go. I only have so much time to devote to these things and I'm sure it is the same for many people. I'd actually like to get past thinking WWE since they are the easiest ones to create as it is accessible to all of us. I'd like to get a King of Trios pack out for Chikara, but I can't even guess when I'll actually be able to finish. I barely have enough time to watch the stuff these days, nevermind having to study them.
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Post by snabbit888 on Jul 2, 2011 23:31:51 GMT -5
I do like the idea of people collaborating on the more easily accessible WWE roster, but as impaler said, I like the thought of people getting out some exports of wrestlers who haven't been made before to add to the community. When I started up GCW in 1963, there were a lot of fairly big name wrestlers I had to create, and I really enjoyed it. I'm actually looking for some more old school wrestlers to be able to add to the mix.
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Post by theimpalertmx on Jul 3, 2011 15:43:18 GMT -5
That is where scenarios like in Strat-O-Matic games can be applied to TNM. You know, having a whole export pack that represents the entire wrestling "season" and put in guys who were on the rosters of the major promotions and the bigger independent stars. You can do one scene (US/Canada) or do the global scene. Then you'd have things like a "Monday Night Wars" scenario where anyone who appeared in WWF and WCW from the inception of Nitro to let's say the finger poke of doom is in the pack (or at least the significant people. I don't think there will be many people clamoring for a "Hard Work" Bobby Walker export after all.)
I think this should be the new paradigm shift approaching export creation for TNM since it pretty much is a relic now. Sure, the current scene can still be represented, but I think most people who are using TNM now are more interested in different time periods or "What If?" scenarios. It makes sense since the people who stopped using TNM probably did so because TNM was no longer staying in stride with the present. They are the type who'd rather have an EWR (and whatever the hell else is has been called since then... I stopped when it wasn't going to be free any more) that allows them to play with the current wrestling industry.
Look at our community now - mostly people who were around at least a decade ago and probably consists of an older demographic in general. How many new users have actively appeared in the past several years? Any newcomer is likely someone who used it before and recently picked it up again. I can't imagine there are too many people who want to put down money for something that doesn't look like it has been updated for a good 7 years. We've all essentially become wrestling historians who use TNM as a tool to further our enjoyment of the past.
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Post by gentlemanjeff on Jul 4, 2011 21:24:21 GMT -5
Good post, impaler.
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Post by mdale2k on Jul 4, 2011 21:31:50 GMT -5
I would be interested in helping to create exports of people who are not in tnm or past wrestlers. I was going to make up some awa exports when I get home to help with a circuit I want to run.
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Post by LillaThrilla on Jul 10, 2011 21:12:35 GMT -5
I don't think there will be many people clamoring for a "Hard Work" Bobby Walker export after all.) But if there are I created one for TNM 3:16. I was going to make up some awa exports when I get home to help with a circuit I want to run. Are we going to have the first ever AWA TNM circuit???
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Post by gentlemanjeff on Jul 16, 2011 14:40:59 GMT -5
An AWA circuit going from like '88-the end would be awesome.
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Post by BeerGeek on Dec 15, 2011 23:08:35 GMT -5
I wish we could do something like this for TNA...
NAH
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Post by theimpalertmx on Feb 21, 2012 22:13:17 GMT -5
So, I figured with what King had to say about the likelihood of new exports, I figure with Wrestlemania coming up now might be a good time to pool our collective resources to at least have an updated WWE pack that we could put out shortly thereafter. The first thing we'd need to establish is who is up for taking a part of this project on. We'd basically have 2 months to get everything together. I figure a couple of people can handle move sets, a couple can deal with stats, and a couple people can do some Q.A. - be able to oversee the finished projects and do some tests. Of course, people can be involved in more than one component. I just know that personally my strengths are more suited to doing more of that Q.A. stuff, looking at the whole product and how an individual relates to the whole pool. So, I guess we could start with who wants to be involved and how you think you can best serve the collective.
Anyone who wants to tackle anything else like TNA or ROH is free to voice their desire to do that as well. I just know that I don't watch either enough to really be of much help in such projects. Either way, I think it'll be good to get this discussion rolling.
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Post by snabbit888 on Feb 21, 2012 23:11:15 GMT -5
I can offer some insight, but at this point, when it comes to exports, I'm in 1982 mode. I'll lend whatever help I can though.
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Post by wickedrex1 on Feb 23, 2012 11:37:22 GMT -5
I don't mean to fill up this thread with nonesence, but reading this, and having my interest peaked as far as editing the work rate, etc., it's making me realize that I have no idea what I'm doing as far as the "Nuts and Bolts" of TNM is concerned.
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