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Post by loadedglove on Jun 16, 2012 13:22:47 GMT -5
Hello! I started a UWF/NWA/WCW circuit based on actual events in 1987 (as seen here tnm316.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=circuits&action=display&thread=663), and wrestled (no pun intended) with the question of whether to book out everything. I would like to throw this question out to fellow board members -- what's your take on what makes for a better circuit? Here's what my thinking was, when I started this: I disabled no-shows, but left in allowances for random interference and injuries. The way I see it, it's a lot easier to come up with great scenarios if I were to completely book things. However, to do so would fail to take into account the unpredictable things that can happen in the wild world of rasslin'. For example, a real-life booker might have had a Hall-of-Fame-worthy booking plan for a Road Warriors-Steiners feud, but if Hawk & Animal were to refuse to do the job in a key match, the booker's brilliance counts for very little. In truth, a lot of historically successful booking has stemmed from a booker's ability to make changes on the fly, to reflect unexpected events that require alteration to "Plan A." While I can't perfectly simulate those things, I can allow TNM itself to do the finishes, then allow myself to book around those finishes in an effort to get me where I wanted to be. And I do know where I want to be -- I have a big game plan. Even though I started with April 1987, I knew from the start what issues and wrestlers (generally) I wanted plugged into key issues for Starrcade, 7 months later. So when I say I'm not booking finishes, that doesn't mean I'm simply rolling the dice and letting TNM do the thinking for me.; I do have a game plan. I just think that part of the challenge of being a booker is the ability to adjust a plan, when necessary, while still keeping the focus on a solid, marketable feud. In my case, it's already benefitted me, a few times. Here's just one: a battle royal outcome (w/ stips that the last 2 would form a tag team) left whitebread babyface Brad Armstrong (and Brad was great, in the ring; I'm not knocking him; he was just a less-than-electric babyface persona) teaming with Kevin Sullivan, whose heel persona as a dark spiritualist cult leader was beyond bizarre. It never would have occurred to me to put them together, but now that they are, my mind is reeling with possibilities for this odd-couple angle. But, as I wrote above, I'm interested in others' thoughts. What's your take on booked vs non-booked?
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Post by KWOAOA on Jun 16, 2012 15:43:39 GMT -5
I've always been one to run non-booked, and much like you have no shows turned off as well, although my stuff is strictly fictional creations I do at times get an idea for a event or two that if the wrestler pulls a "no show" then I'm basically up shits creek which I rather not deal with cause at times it takes a lil while to get use to fictional wrestlers...
I know I may not include much insight but it really comes down to what YOU want to do, if your going to have 3-4 cards planned out and want X wrestler to win, then your basically already telling yourself that you have to book things cause the odds of things being the same are about 30-60 (60 against) as my current champ a fictional creation by the name of Nico Voight has been my champ for a while unbooked and I decided to bring in a few fictional guys based on real wrestlers who I know would have high rankings like Brock Lesnar, well my guy turned him away in a match in less than 4min it was rather interesting to say the lease.
But like I said I may not offer much help but if your planning things and need certain wrestlers to win certain matches then your already booking things so might as well book it in the game... if it doesn't matter, then run non-booked it may make a few surprises and may give you a few other ideas that you didn't have before.
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Post by loadedglove on Jun 16, 2012 17:40:06 GMT -5
Thanks, kwoaoa -- many great points. With me, it's less that I must have specific guys in specific places many months down the line, but more that I have a general plan, and I could conceivably get there a couple of different ways.
For instance, if I'm looking at The Freebirds battling the Four Horsemen in Wargames, then in the months leading up to it, I don't really care (for booking purposes) who wins the leadup matches. If the heels win, there's the heat, and if the faces win, I can book a post-match angle to get the heat.
I probably have better examples, but I'm trying not to overly spoil my upcoming plans.
Once I get closer to major events, I might know, to give another example, that my world title match needs to be Ted DiBiase vs Barry Windham, but I'm OK with either one of them being the champion, so a prior finish between the two won't upset the applecart, either way.
You are absolutely right about guys surprising you. A prior circuit I did had me going, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN Tim Horner made Vader submit to the abdominal stretch?!"
That's why, this time, I know where I want to go and what I want to present, but I'm not exactly hung up on who gets me there. I do have my plan/preference, but I also have a couple of backups that would work just fine.
One thing I did previously that I may (or may not) do in my present circuit is, when I have a champ I want to keep (or so as to reduce the odds of weekly title changes), book title matches as 2/3 falls, then book one fall in favor of my champ. If the challenger can then take the other two straight, then more power to him, but it's a way I had of favoring a champion without outright booking him to win.
Plus, to me, as appears to be the case with you, part of the fun is sitting and watching the match unfold, enjoying a little suspense at the outcome.
PS: "Nico Voight" is one of the coolest names I've read in years!
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Post by KWOAOA on Jun 16, 2012 18:10:45 GMT -5
Well perhaps I can suggest you doing a mixed, as if there's some you want certain winners then book those, for the ones you don't care leave things unbooked.
I would like to say check out my site, although the site does work that I have listed below in my sig, I'm currently doing a transitional phase right now... I'm currently shuffling my stuff over to have it hosted on a blog, I'm more than capable of creating my own site... I'm just not capable of finding a good free webhost as it seems that things are harder to find than one would like to think. So I resort myself to another free alternative that being a blog, things are still being built as i'm slowly coming up with my ideas for things, but i know i have more than enough ideas.
I tend to do things a little bit differently than most at times, as although my stuff has always ran unbooked I also don't do storylines... Never like writing them, or trying to keep up with things, as with my fed (KWO AOA - Kayoz Wrestling Organization - All Out Action) it's more so something I goof with in my spare time, some times I do 1 card a day and thats all I'll do that week other times I'll do 3-6 in a week or I'll do like 5 in a day then randomly slap together an unknown amount of cards together...
Thanks for the PS, to be honest the TNM Wrestler Generator came up with that... To make it even cooler his nick name is "The Messiah"... His finisher is a super kick which has been more affective than one could imagine... He's a masked wrestler and is from Canada.
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Post by rey619 on Jun 17, 2012 7:53:18 GMT -5
I'm squarely in the booked corner. In my opinion, you end up with a lot of weird results if you don't. Like a low-carder defeating the champ with a hammerlock.
It's possible that refusing to do the job was more prevalent before, I don't think it's a huge problem now.
My advice is to run booked, but turn on no-shows. If you want, you could rule that a no-show instead is a refusal to job, forcing you as the booker to change your plans on the fly. I don't think too many wrestler's ever double-crossed the booker in the match and done a shoot finish. Sid Vicious against Hogan comes to mind as an example though.
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Post by loadedglove on Jun 17, 2012 13:31:43 GMT -5
My problem with no-shows came the first time I ran a tournament, and Dick Murdoch no-showed the semi-finals after winning the first two rounds. I just remember thinking, "When does that ever HAPPEN?!"
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Post by JustinCredible on Jun 17, 2012 14:44:33 GMT -5
You can always write your way out of it by saying the guy who won early in the tournament but no showed in the semi or final round was attacked and deemed unable to compete.
If it were to happen in life, they would probably just give the other guy a bye, but, with TNM you can have the guy that did the attack or masterminded it as the one that replaces your no show.
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Post by rey619 on Jun 18, 2012 2:36:50 GMT -5
My problem with no-shows came the first time I ran a tournament, and Dick Murdoch no-showed the semi-finals after winning the first two rounds. I just remember thinking, "When does that ever HAPPEN?!" The tournament was a one-night affair, right? Then it doesn't make sense really. You could go two ways with this, IMO. a) Do as Justin suggests, have someone attack him backstage or something. Josh and Ryan do this in GCW and NWF as well. It presents them with a booking challenge, and can help develop existing storylines or create entire new ones. b) When I have no-shows, I simply book the same wrestler. At the same time, I "invent" some backstage problems which this wrestler is the cause of. Maybe she has tweeted in a way the company disapproves of, had an altercation with some other workers, shown up late or done something else to piss me off. Too many of these, or one grievous enough, and I boot her out the door.
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Post by LillaThrilla on Jun 19, 2012 22:33:45 GMT -5
I definitely prefer booked. I think you can nearly always tell a better storyline when you're booking the results. There's still a random factor in exact match times (the time you book is only approximate), Heat levels, match ratings, no-shows, random interference, injuries, wrestlers quitting or not re-signing, and the angle simply not being well received by your readers (or simply not being happy with the result yourself).
Some wrestlers need to be booked to look strong, like if you're trying to make the next Goldberg or build up a minor midcarder into a viable threat to your secondary champion. Sometimes you need a certain wrestler to win the blowoff match for a feud simply because it's otherwise not a satisfying story. If Randy Savage doesn't lose at that Wrestlemania, Sherri doesn't dump him thus there's no reason for Elizabeth to be in the crowd and she doesn't reunite with Savage. Savage's behavior had been building up to that big moment.
Unbooked certainly has it's merits, but I feel is best used as part of a mostly booked circuit. Examples: 1) If you have an undercard match where neither guy has a feud, don't book a winner and maybe TNM will give you something interesting! 2) Not sure who your #1 contender should be? Put all candidates in a battle royal, but don't book the winner. Work with whoever wins. 3) From a storyline prospective, sometimes it doesn't really matter who wins a feud because either guy will come out looking strong. Or you have several ideas for what direction to go next, but don't know which to use. 4) Not sure if you want to continue a feud? Let the big match go unbooked. If A wins, the feud continues and B wins at the next PPV, but if B wins the feud ends now. 5) Early in a circuit I often don't have clear storylines planned for most guys so I will let TNM help steer me.
My favorite result off the top of my head from an unbooked match was a cruiserweight that had no real gimmick or storyline. Out of nowhere, he goes uber-heelish in an unbooked match, arguing with the referee and shoving him around, nearly getting DQ'd several times (he was lucky the ref had a high Tolerance). Suddenly the guy has a persona (pissed off heel) and a feud (with the referee he assaulted).
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Post by loadedglove on Jun 30, 2012 12:43:52 GMT -5
Thanks to all of you who offered thoughts; believe it or not, I have incorporated at least a little bit of EVERYONE'S thoughts into my NWA+UWF=WCW circuit, which I can now honestly describe as a partially booked/partially unbooked circuit.
Thanks again, everyone, and I'd still love to see any other thoughts on the subject.
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Post by snabbit888 on Jul 19, 2012 1:03:27 GMT -5
For my money, you have to do booked. Unbooked in most cases, you're just plugging guys into matches. Which is kinda cool if you're trying to do a sports league that is "real." But if you're trying to run real pro-wrestling style storylines, unbooked just doesn't work.
I leave no shows on, injuries on, honor any instance where a wrestler gives noticed, quits, or won't re-sign. No shows and injuries give obvious booking challenges of the real life variety. Just through no shows and contract issues alone, you'd be surprised how much depth and "behind-the-scenes problems" have arisen. Pedro Morales and Mil Mascaras hate each other and have shot on each other in during matches. Bruno Sammartino got screwed out of the World Title in a match when he quit on me a second time, which subsequently led to a full-scale riot at my next show. Harley Race has quit on me twice and developed a bad reputation because of it, which transitioned perfectly to NWF for Josh when Race no-showed the finals of the World Title tournament, holding him up for more money.
So the way I look at it, if you let your brain be creative enough, even if you book things to the last detail, enough wild stuff can pop up that turns things upside down.
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Post by JoshiQ on Jul 19, 2012 9:41:57 GMT -5
Good thread. I'll echo Ryan's thoughts. The only way I've ever been able to enjoy running a circuit is completely booked. And for the most part I've only enjoyed reading booked circuits. It's just too hard for me to get invested in a circuit where Vader can be pinned by a bodyslam by Rip Rogers in 45 seconds.
I would be horribly bored if all I got to do was book winners, could hire anyone I want, and didn't use no-shows. That is where I get some of my own entertainment. It makes me think on the fly and mix things up a bit. I can't say I love it when a main eventer of mine quits on me, but it also opens up so many different ways to go with the circuit that it is kind of a love/hate relationship.
Race quitting on Ryan twice is the best example I can come up with. He had to roll with it and because of it certain people got pushes and certain people had to drop down the card. All because of one guy quitting. Race's no-showing of the finals of my tournament for the first World Champion led to Billy Graham winning the title. That was never the intention. Race was supposed to take the title and have a 1-2 year long reign.
Anyways, I'm just saying that even if you run a booked circuit, there can be many things that pop up that can make it interesting and still have that feeling of "anything can happen."
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Post by BeerGeek on Nov 29, 2016 1:30:39 GMT -5
I book unless of course it's a plugin based match, where you cannot really book the results or who wins anyway. I usually only run those as a last resort if I'm not sure who I want to win.
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Post by superhuman on Feb 13, 2017 18:06:59 GMT -5
I personally never booked matches. Pushes determined outcomes (with some mild surprises). I only planned interferences, but it was up to the program to determine whether that interference caused pins or DQs. With the way I placed a schedule together, it made things easy to see who people's main opponents on a monthly basis were.
I also had a rule for my wrestlers to be "ready to defend" at any time. I didn't prescribe to title defenses only on PPVS. If a champion was scheduled, then it was a title defense, no matter who the opponent was. It added variety in never knowing if a champion was going to lose his title before a PPV and change the face fo the card.
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jlamb
Midcarder
Posts: 104
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Post by jlamb on Mar 28, 2017 8:48:19 GMT -5
As mentioned in another thread, I recently got the itch to play around with TNM again. I'm starting off by running WrestleMania X8 totally unbooked and taking the results and going in my own direction from there. I have a general idea of where I want to be for 'Mania 19 (if I make it that far!) so I plan on booking the key stuff along the way but letting the undercards of most shows go unbooked to see what happens.
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Post by jacklarkin on Mar 29, 2017 15:33:22 GMT -5
I loved running unbooked feds just for fun on side projects, but you always had those weird situations where certain guys just excelled and so you would need to try and modify the stats down to make it more mainstream. Two that come to mind for me were Brooklyn Brawler and Bobby Duncum Jr.
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Post by doughcomic on Jul 1, 2018 15:19:35 GMT -5
I have a rule set that I use as my guide to booking. I for the most part go unbooked with no-shows and random interference turned on. I use a roster of 30 talent with every show capping at 24 used. If one no-shows then they get a punishment of being in booked losses for a set time period of 4 matches the first offense, 8 matches the second offense, 13 matches for a third and termination for a fourth. My random interference is used to set up feuds that run best of 5 series the first time, if they interfere again after that is complete then they get a best of 7 with their que cleared following its completetion. My champions get a minimum run of 4 shows before they legitimately defend their titles. For the four weeks they either are in non-title matches or booked to win defenses against lets say the guy who is on no-show punishment. I set my stats up based on the following, Push = best PWI 500 rating in top 100, Work = based on RL match star ratings, Stamina = based on longest RL singles match.
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