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Post by kingofoldschool on Dec 7, 2019 15:43:54 GMT -5
Hi all, The move database I am currently using for creating exports is as follows: petabr.freehostia.com/191107M_quick.htmI am preparing a document which gives more details on some of the moves, including explanations for creating them. If you have any questions please let me know. Thanks!
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Post by mkpunk on Dec 16, 2019 23:42:33 GMT -5
Hi all, The move database I am currently using for creating exports is as follows: petabr.freehostia.com/191107M_quick.htmI am preparing a document which gives more details on some of the moves, including explanations for creating them. If you have any questions please let me know. Thanks! Points for clarification: Isn't the back suplex and belly-to-back suplex the same? Why is the blockbuster suplex from the top rope in but not the blockbuster suplex? The torture rack backbreaker is the Abyss Shock Treatment/Nikki Bella Rack Attack 1.0 while the torture rack into a double knee backbreaker is the Roddy Strong move right? Is the Western Lariat all that different to the standard lariat?
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Post by kingofoldschool on Dec 17, 2019 4:12:27 GMT -5
>Points for clarification: >Isn't the back suplex and belly-to-back suplex the same?
They are not the same thing in TNM. The traditional back suplex is sometimes also referred to as a "side suplex" because you stand next to your opponent (starts the same as an atomic drop) but you then drop backwards. The belly-to-back suplex is carried out like a German suplex, minus the bridge/pin.
>Why is the blockbuster suplex from the top rope in but not the blockbuster suplex?
I created this for Bandido; I went with that name instead of e.g. moonsault fallaway slam. There is no reason not to add the blockbuster suplex, I just haven't seen anybody use it when creating recent exports.
>The torture rack backbreaker is the Abyss Shock Treatment/Nikki Bella Rack Attack 1.0 while the torture rack into a double knee backbreaker is the Roddy Strong move right?
Yes, that's correct. I have added the torture rack into a double knee backbreaker for Teddy Hart and Xavier Woods.
>Is the Western Lariat all that different to the standard lariat?
The Western lariat mainly differs from the "normal" lariat by the person who executes the move keeping his arm in an L shape, hitting the opponent and then going down with him. It used to be one of Giant Baba's signature moves and was one of the original 100 moves in TNM. Since hardly anybody else used it after Baba, it never really got updated or expanded as TNM matured and new flags became available.
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Post by mkpunk on Dec 17, 2019 13:24:47 GMT -5
>Points for clarification: >Isn't the back suplex and belly-to-back suplex the same? They are not the same thing in TNM. The traditional back suplex is sometimes also referred to as a "side suplex" because you stand next to your opponent (starts the same as an atomic drop) but you then drop backwards. The belly-to-back suplex is carried out like a German suplex, minus the bridge/pin. >Why is the blockbuster suplex from the top rope in but not the blockbuster suplex? I created this for Bandido; I went with that name instead of e.g. moonsault fallaway slam. There is no reason not to add the blockbuster suplex, I just haven't seen anybody use it when creating recent exports. >The torture rack backbreaker is the Abyss Shock Treatment/Nikki Bella Rack Attack 1.0 while the torture rack into a double knee backbreaker is the Roddy Strong move right? Yes, that's correct. I have added the torture rack into a double knee backbreaker for Teddy Hart and Xavier Woods. >Is the Western Lariat all that different to the standard lariat? The Western lariat mainly differs from the "normal" lariat by the person who executes the move keeping his arm in an L shape, hitting the opponent and then going down with him. It used to be one of Giant Baba's signature moves and was one of the original 100 moves in TNM. Since hardly anybody else used it after Baba, it never really got updated or expanded as TNM matured and new flags became available. So belly-to-back suplex and release/snap German are the same? Would this mean belly-to-back superplex and top-rope German are the same too? If so what is top-rope back suplex?
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Post by tnmlyger on Dec 17, 2019 16:41:29 GMT -5
The motions are similar but not identical.
Belly-to-back suplex is a less-aggressively-done release German - think dragon suplex vs snap dragon suplex.
A snap German is a violently done, low-height German suplex - Akira Tozawa. Unfortunately most commentators erroneously call Toni Storm's snap belly-to-back suplex a "snap German". This is incorrect because what differentiates a German suplex from a belly-to-back suplex is the bridge and pin.
One thing to remember is that TNM has been around for 25+ years. The belly-to-back suplex was one of the original moves created in 1992/1993. The name "release German suplex" wasn't even coined until way, way later - over a decade in fact.
The term "back suplex" for the move Peter described was chosen because that is what Gordon Solie, Gorilla Monsoon, Vince McMahon etc. called it in the 1980s. Dino Bravo's finisher was called the "side suplex". From today's perspective, you would call the "back suplex" of old a "side suplex" and Dino Bravo's finisher a "side slam". A suplex always implies a trajectory where you get taken off of your feet in an arc and then land, most of the time on your back. This wasn't the case for Dino Bravo's move. Only problem: they started calling Bossman's finisher a "side slam". And so this inaccuracy just kept getting more and more layers ;-)
The term "top-rope back suplex" is a move where you start out in an atomic drop position while both wrestlers are standing on the top rope. The "belly-to-back superplex" has you standing squarely behind the opponent and the "top-rope German suplex" is a misnomer for the "belly-to-back suplerplex" because A GERMAN SUPLEX REQUIRES A BRIDGING PIN ;-)
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Post by LillaThrilla on Dec 18, 2019 22:41:43 GMT -5
The motions are similar but not identical. Belly-to-back suplex is a less-aggressively-done release German - think dragon suplex vs snap dragon suplex. A snap German is a violently done, low-height German suplex - Akira Tozawa. Unfortunately most commentators erroneously call Toni Storm's snap belly-to-back suplex a "snap German". This is incorrect because what differentiates a German suplex from a belly-to-back suplex is the bridge and pin. One thing to remember is that TNM has been around for 25+ years. The belly-to-back suplex was one of the original moves created in 1992/1993. The name "release German suplex" wasn't even coined until way, way later - over a decade in fact. Who does a belly-to-back suplex i.e. not a side back suplex and not a release German suplex? (Wrestling nomenclature is liable to drive me to drinking. It makes the English language look logical, rational, and consistent by comparison.)
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Post by mkpunk on Dec 19, 2019 0:59:39 GMT -5
The motions are similar but not identical. Belly-to-back suplex is a less-aggressively-done release German - think dragon suplex vs snap dragon suplex. A snap German is a violently done, low-height German suplex - Akira Tozawa. Unfortunately most commentators erroneously call Toni Storm's snap belly-to-back suplex a "snap German". This is incorrect because what differentiates a German suplex from a belly-to-back suplex is the bridge and pin. One thing to remember is that TNM has been around for 25+ years. The belly-to-back suplex was one of the original moves created in 1992/1993. The name "release German suplex" wasn't even coined until way, way later - over a decade in fact. The term "back suplex" for the move Peter described was chosen because that is what Gordon Solie, Gorilla Monsoon, Vince McMahon etc. called it in the 1980s. Dino Bravo's finisher was called the "side suplex". From today's perspective, you would call the "back suplex" of old a "side suplex" and Dino Bravo's finisher a "side slam". A suplex always implies a trajectory where you get taken off of your feet in an arc and then land, most of the time on your back. This wasn't the case for Dino Bravo's move. Only problem: they started calling Bossman's finisher a "side slam". And so this inaccuracy just kept getting more and more layers ;-) The term "top-rope back suplex" is a move where you start out in an atomic drop position while both wrestlers are standing on the top rope. The "belly-to-back superplex" has you standing squarely behind the opponent and the "top-rope German suplex" is a misnomer for the "belly-to-back suplerplex" because A GERMAN SUPLEX REQUIRES A BRIDGING PIN ;-) Not if it is a release German suplex. I think "Stevie Richards" was the first to popularize the release German suplex with his trifecta. Yes I know, not really Stevie Richards, but I rather not say his name...
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Post by tnmlyger on Dec 20, 2019 7:10:44 GMT -5
Who does a belly-to-back suplex i.e. not a side back suplex and not a release German suplex? (Wrestling nomenclature is liable to drive me to drinking. It makes the English language look logical, rational, and consistent by comparison.) Just a small sample:
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Post by tnmlyger on Dec 20, 2019 7:24:07 GMT -5
Not if it is a release German suplex. I think "Stevie Richards" was the first to popularize the release German suplex with his trifecta. Yes I know, not really Stevie Richards, but I rather not say his name...
But that's the thing: the German suplex was popularized by Karl Gotch - who first called it Atomic Suplex. What differentiated it from a belly-to-back suplex was going into a bridge at the end. So if you follow logic, there can't be such a thing as a "release German suplex".
It's a misnomer, too.
Using that term is - on the surface - as nonsensical as calling a move which does not involve lifting your opponent in an arc a suplex... it goes against the very definition.
All I'm saying is that (and I'm completely with Josh here) trying to name wrestling moves consistently is a fool's errand because the names don't necessarily make sense in how they are used... and they change over time.
I decided a long time ago *not* to go along with these changes in TNM because that would lead to moves getting duplicated. I rename the "back suplex" into a "side suplex" today and the next export file you import gives you the "back suplex" right back... so now you have both.
Question: Would a "masking" feature be something that's useful to people here? Something along the lines of you telling TNM "uh... dude... whenever you want to reference a release German suplex, please call it release belly-to-back suplex instead".
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Post by dewelar on Dec 20, 2019 15:28:47 GMT -5
I think what would really help is a list of the moves in the database with a brief description of each. Just regarding this one example, the German vs. back vs. belly-to-back vs. backdrop (which may or may not be the same as one of the other three) suplexes (suplices?) have had me confused for ages because of how often they were called incorrectly by various announcers over many years, so knowing definitively what's what in the database would be a big help both for this instance and globally.
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Post by LillaThrilla on Dec 21, 2019 17:47:16 GMT -5
Question: Would a "masking" feature be something that's useful to people here? Something along the lines of you telling TNM "uh... dude... whenever you want to reference a release German suplex, please call it release belly-to-back suplex instead". What would solve a lot of the move database issues would be a feature/option when importing wrestlers to substitute movies. For each move in the export file that is not already in my moves database, ask me whether to add the new move or replace it with an existing move. The latter choice could presumably function essentially the same as if you were deleting a move from your database but its used by a wrestler in your database. In theory, a more complicated solution which could save a user time in the long run would be filters, either when importing or as a database cleaner plugin. For example, one filter would replace any instances of "bridging German suplex" with "German suplex". I don't mean simply masking the move name in the match output, but replacing one move with your preferred name. This is probably much more work to program and definitely more work to set up, but for someone who imports new wrestlers on a regular basis it could be worthwhile in the long run.
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Post by tnmlyger on Dec 21, 2019 18:47:23 GMT -5
Some export files contain up to 50 new moves, and that's if your databases are well-populated already. You could end up being asked to import or substitute 50, 100 or 150 moves one by one. Unfortunately there's a limit to how much of this can be handled in DOS.
The other problem with this is you can royally screw the pooch if you select just one wrong move. Let's say you want to remap the incoming "superduper running powerslam" to a "running powerslam" but select "running power bomb" instead. It's not just that you'll all of a sudden have wrestlers doing a running power bomb when you want them to do a running powerslam. It's that this running power bomb may now be used as a move counter, dive counter, part of a tag team finisher etc.
And there would be no way to undo this, short of manually going through the export file, deleting all the wrestlers from it, all the moves and dives from it and all the tag teams imported from it and then re-import while hoping that no mistakes are made this time.
The only way to do this properly is through a Windows-based importer that is a complete reimagining of what is being done now. It would have to show you the wrestlers, moves, dives etc. contained in the export file before you even do anything. It would have to let you select which wrestlers you want en bloc and then come up with a minimal set of moves etc. to import in order to be able to import those wrestlers. And of the resulting moves and dives, you would have to be able to remap them to existing moves and import the rest.
That's the only way I can picture this being done right. Anything I could do in DOS in the ControlCenter would be a stop-gap measure because I simply don't have access to enough free RAM to accomodate this. I'd have to cut down on the max number of wrestlers and moves in order to free up this memory, and I personally don't think that is a good trade-off.
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Post by tnmlyger on Dec 21, 2019 18:58:44 GMT -5
I think what would really help is a list of the moves in the database with a brief description of each. Just regarding this one example, the German vs. back vs. belly-to-back vs. backdrop (which may or may not be the same as one of the other three) suplexes (suplices?) have had me confused for ages because of how often they were called incorrectly by various announcers over many years, so knowing definitively what's what in the database would be a big help both for this instance and globally. I don't disagree that it would be useful. I just don't think I'll find the time to sit down and do this for the roughly 500 moves in the old reference database, much less the 750+ in the current reference database. Especially considering I only created about 350 of them myself.
Perhaps it would be more efficient to just ask about the moves in question here?
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Post by dewelar on Dec 21, 2019 19:08:44 GMT -5
I think what would really help is a list of the moves in the database with a brief description of each. Just regarding this one example, the German vs. back vs. belly-to-back vs. backdrop (which may or may not be the same as one of the other three) suplexes (suplices?) have had me confused for ages because of how often they were called incorrectly by various announcers over many years, so knowing definitively what's what in the database would be a big help both for this instance and globally. I don't disagree that it would be useful. I just don't think I'll find the time to sit down and do this for the roughly 500 moves in the old reference database, much less the 750+ in the current reference database. Especially considering I only created about 350 of them myself. That's fair. That's always an option, of course. That said, I know that I was involved in a community-based project to create something like this several years ago, so maybe this is something that we on the boards can create as a group, then submit it to you (or a duly designated representative thereof ) for final approval?
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Post by mkpunk on Dec 22, 2019 18:28:10 GMT -5
Not if it is a release German suplex. I think "Stevie Richards" was the first to popularize the release German suplex with his trifecta. Yes I know, not really Stevie Richards, but I rather not say his name...
But that's the thing: the German suplex was popularized by Karl Gotch - who first called it Atomic Suplex. What differentiated it from a belly-to-back suplex was going into a bridge at the end. So if you follow logic, there can't be such a thing as a "release German suplex".
It's a misnomer, too.
Using that term is - on the surface - as nonsensical as calling a move which does not involve lifting your opponent in an arc a suplex... it goes against the very definition.
All I'm saying is that (and I'm completely with Josh here) trying to name wrestling moves consistently is a fool's errand because the names don't necessarily make sense in how they are used... and they change over time.
I decided a long time ago *not* to go along with these changes in TNM because that would lead to moves getting duplicated. I rename the "back suplex" into a "side suplex" today and the next export file you import gives you the "back suplex" right back... so now you have both.
Question: Would a "masking" feature be something that's useful to people here? Something along the lines of you telling TNM "uh... dude... whenever you want to reference a release German suplex, please call it release belly-to-back suplex instead".
Here is the problem with a number of these moves. Many who have the belly-to-back suplex or belly-to-back superplex are designated for what a back suplex is not the release German. I mean TNM 3:16 and the old TNM-UK lists had that listed as a back suplex and consolodated bridging or pinning moves. As for side suplex, just call it a pavement slam like they do in the UK...
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Post by tnmlyger on Dec 23, 2019 5:55:40 GMT -5
@lillathrilla
Just to illustrate the problem better: this is basically what happens - just looking at moves - when you import Kenny Omega:
These are all the moves directly referenced in Kenny's record - obviously these moves have to be imported if they don't exist yet.
Whoops - looking at the dives used in Kenny's record, two other moves have to be imported because they are counters to the dives.
Since the moves in Kenny's record have counters themselves, these moves have to be imported, too.
And because we're importing the moves listed in the previous section, we now need to import these moves as well because they are used as counters to those moves and aren't yet on the import list.
Since we just added another bunch of moves to the import list, we have to check THEIR counters, too. This gives us two more moves to import.
I haven't yet checked the tag teams in that export file --- in case one that needs to be imported has a combo finisher, those moves need to be imported, too. And the counters to those moves. And the counters to the counters of those move... and so on.
Essentially it's a recursive process that only terminates when one full sweep of all moves, counters etc. reveals that there are no more missing moves.
In a nutshell, THIS is why I decided to import ALL moves from every export file, regardless of how many wrestlers are being imported. If I import all the moves listed in the file, there is no risk of missing moves.
The downside is you end up with tons of unused moves from importing just a few wrestlers from a pack and have to use the Database Cleaner to get rid of them.
The whole process is a lot more complicated than one would think :-)
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Post by tnmlyger on Dec 23, 2019 6:23:06 GMT -5
Here is the problem with a number of these moves. Many who have the belly-to-back suplex or belly-to-back superplex are designated for what a back suplex is not the release German. I mean TNM 3:16 and the old TNM-UK lists had that listed as a back suplex and consolodated bridging or pinning moves. Yes, I see that issue. And this isn't just the export file authors potentially misunderstanding what's what (they're not mind readers and most certainly didn't grow up with the same wrestling as I did). Announcers have been very inconsistent, both across wrestling periods and across promotions in the same period. There is no definitive right and wrong when calling moves. The problem is just that moves for which you have different definitions than what they are set up to be in TNM will lead to scenarios where counters don't make sense... since you are picturing a different move than I was or whomever created a certain wrestler. What we need to strive for --- and Peter's (since you mention TNM UK) been on my back about this for years now --- is consistency in understanding which move name in TNM is which move in real life. HE has this understanding and his exports reflect that TODAY but it's been a process. Peter's documented the process really well so perhaps there is further info he can release down the line. Given that over 90 percent of TNM users are in the US and Canada, I'm not sure that'll work ;-)
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Post by mkpunk on Dec 23, 2019 14:55:31 GMT -5
Here is the problem with a number of these moves. Many who have the belly-to-back suplex or belly-to-back superplex are designated for what a back suplex is not the release German. I mean TNM 3:16 and the old TNM-UK lists had that listed as a back suplex and consolodated bridging or pinning moves. Yes, I see that issue. And this isn't just the export file authors potentially misunderstanding what's what (they're not mind readers and most certainly didn't grow up with the same wrestling as I did). Announcers have been very inconsistent, both across wrestling periods and across promotions in the same period. There is no definitive right and wrong when calling moves. The problem is just that moves for which you have different definitions than what they are set up to be in TNM will lead to scenarios where counters don't make sense... since you are picturing a different move than I was or whomever created a certain wrestler. What we need to strive for --- and Peter's (since you mention TNM UK) been on my back about this for years now --- is consistency in understanding which move name in TNM is which move in real life. HE has this understanding and his exports reflect that TODAY but it's been a process. Peter's documented the process really well so perhaps there is further info he can release down the line. Given that over 90 percent of TNM users are in the US and Canada, I'm not sure that'll work ;-) I live in the US so I too know as it as the side slam/side suplex/sidewalk slam and only know it due to UK naming conventions from watching British promotions. But I only said pavement slam since nobody would confuse what a side slam, sidewalk slam and side suplex is that way. Pavement slam is exclusive to the Kevin Nash style backtracked pick up into a slam. Maybe call the side slam a Bubba Slam since I believe it started being used as Big Bubba Rogers rather than Traylor using it as the Boss Man Slam in WWE. Yes wrestler specific but it isn't like we have move editor plugins today...
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Post by tnmlyger on Dec 23, 2019 15:51:31 GMT -5
When you say "move editor plugins", what specifically would you need this to do?
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Post by mkpunk on Dec 23, 2019 16:10:30 GMT -5
When you say "move editor plugins", what specifically would you need this to do? The special move name editor. So for non-brits pavement slam could be side walk slam/side slam/side supper and Bubba Slam could be Black Hole Slam/Winds of Change/Scrapbuster etc.
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Post by tnmlyger on Dec 23, 2019 16:31:23 GMT -5
The Special Move Wizard plugin can do this on a wrestler-by-wrestler basis. You're looking for something global, right?
What I need to do - besides writing the plugin itself - is figure out a way to integrate this move mapping in a way where you always see the name you want but it doesn't cause additional headaches when importing.
Say you want to call a bodyslam a "gravity mat-splash". It needs to LOGICALLY retain the bodyslam name so the next export file you import doesn't give you another bodyslam record. I'll think of something.
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Post by tnmlyger on Dec 23, 2019 16:34:48 GMT -5
As for importing, I'd like to show you an early version of a plugin I'm working on at the moment. It allows you to a) see what's in an export file, b) select only the wrestlers you want in one fell swoop, c) import only the moves, dives, managers and tag teams connected to the wrestlers you selected (and only those - no more global imports), and d) let you remap moves and dives that will be imported with your selected wrestlers to existing moves in the database. I think this will solve many things that bother folks today.
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Post by mkpunk on Dec 23, 2019 23:07:32 GMT -5
The Special Move Wizard plugin can do this on a wrestler-by-wrestler basis. You're looking for something global, right?
What I need to do - besides writing the plugin itself - is figure out a way to integrate this move mapping in a way where you always see the name you want but it doesn't cause additional headaches when importing.
Say you want to call a bodyslam a "gravity mat-splash". It needs to LOGICALLY retain the bodyslam name so the next export file you import doesn't give you another bodyslam record. I'll think of something.
Not necessarily, just not confuse people the easiest when it comes to the moves. As long as there is agreement that a sidewalk slam I'd say a pavement slam or a Boss Man Slam is listed as the Bubba Slam we can consolidate easier. Even the belly to back/release German suplex issue...
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Post by tnmlyger on Dec 24, 2019 5:46:55 GMT -5
I'm sorry - I've read this last post five times now and I'm still not understanding what precisely you're looking for. What specifically are you expecting the program to do? What does the user do? And are you looking to get export file makers to agree on certain things - and which would those be? Where would this information come from? Are you suggesting to provide alternate names for moves and have the user select one of the alternatives per move, if they exist? If so, how would you treat moves that are called by different names in different eras or in different territories in the same era? For instance in the late 80s, there was tremendous confusion because WWF and NWA commentators kept using one name for different moves. On WWF TV, the move with which Ricky Steamboat beat Randy Savage for the IC title was a "small package". The school-boy roll-up was called an "inside cradle". On NWA TV, the Steamboat move was called an "inside cradle", while the school-boy was called "school-boy" by Jim Ross, "roll-up" by Gordon Solie and "inside cradle" by Tony Schiavone.
In Japan, a vertical suplex is called a "brain buster"... which is a totally different move in the US (Koko B. Ware's vertical suplex where he drops you straight down on your head).
I'm convinced it would confuse people even MORE if I put the option of using the term "inside cradle" for two completely different moves in there.
As far as I'm concerned, there is no way to come up with something that works for everybody in this case.
Perhaps it would make more sense to add a section to TNM7.com which lists moves from TNM's database and links to a corresponding YouTube video (if it exists) of the move. That's something I couldn't possibly do by myself, though, from a time perspective.
The search term "pavement slam" wrestling results in fewer than 900 hits on Google. It doesn't seem to be such a prevalent term.
What would your solution to that be? Thanks in advance --- and Merry Christmas/Chag Urim Sameach/Happy Holidays :-)
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Post by mkpunk on Dec 25, 2019 11:00:47 GMT -5
I'm sorry - I've read this last post five times now and I'm still not understanding what precisely you're looking for. What specifically are you expecting the program to do? What does the user do? And are you looking to get export file makers to agree on certain things - and which would those be? Where would this information come from? Are you suggesting to provide alternate names for moves and have the user select one of the alternatives per move, if they exist? If so, how would you treat moves that are called by different names in different eras or in different territories in the same era? For instance in the late 80s, there was tremendous confusion because WWF and NWA commentators kept using one name for different moves. On WWF TV, the move with which Ricky Steamboat beat Randy Savage for the IC title was a "small package". The school-boy roll-up was called an "inside cradle". On NWA TV, the Steamboat move was called an "inside cradle", while the school-boy was called "school-boy" by Jim Ross, "roll-up" by Gordon Solie and "inside cradle" by Tony Schiavone.
In Japan, a vertical suplex is called a "brain buster"... which is a totally different move in the US (Koko B. Ware's vertical suplex where he drops you straight down on your head).
I'm convinced it would confuse people even MORE if I put the option of using the term "inside cradle" for two completely different moves in there.
As far as I'm concerned, there is no way to come up with something that works for everybody in this case.
Perhaps it would make more sense to add a section to TNM7.com which lists moves from TNM's database and links to a corresponding YouTube video (if it exists) of the move. That's something I couldn't possibly do by myself, though, from a time perspective.
The search term "pavement slam" wrestling results in fewer than 900 hits on Google. It doesn't seem to be such a prevalent term.
What would your solution to that be? Thanks in advance --- and Merry Christmas/Chag Urim Sameach/Happy Holidays :-) I'm only proposing move names that wouldn't create confession. If I am not mistaken side suplex itself was not just the Dino Bravo move as called by Monsoon but also a suplex variant or variants. I seem to remember someone (perhaps Vince) call a gutwrench a side suplex and I think the THQ N64 video games called a back suplex variant a side suplex. I never got calling a roll up an inside cradle. What exactly is "inside" about a roll up. I think the brain buster one is a move that has multiple names but I do believe it is far more widely known the the American brain buster is the Eddie Guerrero/Koko B. Ware move. Not like the sidewalk slam which is used for the Bubba Slam and Nash's "side suplex".
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