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Post by LillaThrilla on Mar 19, 2010 9:12:17 GMT -5
Ryan is running GCW with only 1-2 cards per month, which probably makes sense for the time period. In the pre-RAW/Nitro era most shows other than PPVs and other big cards (ex: SNME & Clash of the Champions) featured house shows and even some syndicated TV full of squashing jobbers and cutting promos. Right? (I admit limited knowledge about the pre-Monday Night Wars era)
Ryan is doing pretty well with this in terms of fans of his circuit. But I'm wondering if this is bad for TNM to calculate heat? And also if you're doing a modern style circuit instead of an old school one it seems like this wouldn't work as well.
Then again, Oliver's WWF circuit was done in a similiar fashion to GCW-OS.
I was thinking about a modern' circuit with weekly TV and monthly PPVs. But rather that doing every show, I would only run PPVs plus a "highlight show" to set up each PPV which would feature just promos and select matches from the weekly TV shows that progressed fueds or were otherwise significant. Does that sound like a good idea?
Curious to hear thoughts/opinions/experiences on "non-traditional" circuits i.e. something outside the weekly show(s) + supercards format most circuits and most modern US promotions do.
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Post by seanh529 on Mar 19, 2010 9:34:08 GMT -5
There are positives and negatives to doing it both ways. I find that doing a weekly TV show and a "big card" or PPV card gets boring. I like doing house shows, but sometimes all I feel they are good for is increasing the rankings of my wrestlers. Here are the different types of things I've tried to implement in the the USWA. I try to keep the circuit running, just change the format schedule to something I'm into doing.
1. Touring.
I try to keep February and September as months where we do a tour of a region. Last year we toured Japan and England. It is a good excuse to bring in 3 to 5 guys from the certain region and run mini angles, and kind of keeps the fed fresh. Its kind of how they do it in Japan.
2. Memphis Style
I always thought the USWA in real life had a cool set up. They taped a live TV studio show on Saturday mornings and had a big weekly show on Monday nights at the Mid South Coliseum. They would also run a random house shows during the week either sunday night, or even tuesdays.
3. 1 card tapes multiple TV shows.
This is what I've been doing the last few months in the USWA. I will run 1 card, but it's broken up into 3 different weeks of shows. When I post the shows to the board I just post them as they would "air" then instead of my wrestlers contracts being limited to weekly TV. It opens up a house show and it doesn't screw with their contracts.
I'm still trying to figure out what I like the most, but now a days I think you can be so much more creative than just doing weekly TV and a big show.
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Post by snabbit888 on Mar 19, 2010 12:09:27 GMT -5
I know the way that TNM was originally programmed was to run one show a month, as far as calculating heat goes. Oliver's old WWF circuit was run as a prototype for how to make TNM work.
I've found it actually screws with the heat a little bit when you run weekly TV and then supercards, just because if you run 4 RAWs and then a PPV a month, it's equivalent to 5 months in TNM. The card multiplier helps curb this though, I believe.
When I get to TV, I already plan to do something similar to what Sean said he does. I'm trying to keep GCW-OS "true to life" without it being boring for me. I'll be doing all of my TV at one taping leading up to the big supercard, until I start getting into the RAW era. Then it will go to a more modern format.
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Post by LillaThrilla on Mar 19, 2010 14:35:09 GMT -5
Another idea I've considered to mix things up on a future circuit is to use the weekly show + PPVs plan, but instead of doing a monthly PPV (12 per year) I would do one approximately every 6 weeks (8 per year). Gives more time to build things up. I'll be doing all of my TV at one taping leading up to the big supercard, until I start getting into the RAW era. Then it will go to a more modern format. Out of curiosity, is GCW supposed to be a competitor to (W)WWF or is an alternate (W)WWF run by someone else? |
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Post by snabbit888 on Mar 19, 2010 15:52:16 GMT -5
GCW is supposed to more or less be WWF. The universe of GCW is similar to how it was in real life. The NWA exists, the McMahon family is running a territory, etc, but because of me using wrestlers who would have been in certain locations, etc., I'm going to create an entire alternate universe. So it's similar, but not exact.
Mamushi is actually going to be helping me flesh out the history of some other promotions, title histories, etc., but the only circuit to actually be ran will be GCW. I want to do this in case later on I want to "purchase" a circuit (WWF buys WCW), do a Monday Night Wars, etc. I want there to be some sort of structure to do that with, without it being so detailed and complicated that I lose interest because it's too difficult to maintain.
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Post by rey619 on Jun 22, 2010 1:34:43 GMT -5
Another idea I've considered to mix things up on a future circuit is to use the weekly show + PPVs plan, but instead of doing a monthly PPV (12 per year) I would do one approximately every 6 weeks (8 per year). Gives more time to build things up. My TNAW has 8 PPV's a year, approximately one every six weeks. When you only have 1 hour TV every week, even 8 PPV's may be too many. |
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Crpls
Midcarder
Posts: 140
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Post by Crpls on Jun 22, 2010 21:15:18 GMT -5
Heat skews match/card ratings so ridiculously that I reset everyone to 5 after every PPV/tour/series of cards anyway.
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Post by LillaThrilla on Jun 22, 2010 21:38:52 GMT -5
Heat skews match/card ratings so ridiculously that I reset everyone to 5 after every PPV/tour/series of cards anyway. Examples of some ridiculously high match ratings you've gotten due to heat? |
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Post by tommybrownell on Jun 22, 2010 21:54:23 GMT -5
While I've never really experienced that, I wish it were the case more. An OMG 35 minute technical exhibition in which 90% of the audience is asleep really shouldn't be more than 1 star anyway.
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Crpls
Midcarder
Posts: 140
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Post by Crpls on Jun 23, 2010 20:25:02 GMT -5
While I've never really experienced that, I wish it were the case more. An OMG 35 minute technical exhibition in which 90% of the audience is asleep really shouldn't be more than 1 star anyway. On that note, if someone puts on a 35 minute technical masterpiece in front of an audience that doesn't give a shit, they probably deserve the DUD, though. |
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Post by tommybrownell on Jun 23, 2010 20:39:27 GMT -5
Yeah...that's kinda what I said. I remember this coming up on the mailing list years ago, the argument about how much Heat (I believe it was actually specifically Charisma we were talking about) does impact match ratings vs should impact match ratings.
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Crpls
Midcarder
Posts: 140
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Post by Crpls on Jun 23, 2010 21:45:04 GMT -5
Yeah...that's kinda what I said. I remember this coming up on the mailing list years ago, the argument about how much Heat (I believe it was actually specifically Charisma we were talking about) does impact match ratings vs should impact match ratings. ...Yeah, I didn't realize I phrased it almost EXACTLY like you. I thought I was trying to make a different point, but probably not. But there's a difference between putting on a style of match the crowd doesn't give a shit about (i.e. Jack Evans and Teddy Hart in front of, say, a Mid-South crowd) versus putting on a match they could enjoy but still not giving a crap. The former is more likely a promoter's fault, while the latter could be blamed on the wrestlers. Eh? Nevermind. As far as asterisks go, I've never bothered with them and probably never will in terms of watching. I can tell ya what I like and what I don't without thinking too much when a match ends. I recently watched WM7 again for the first time in a while and nobody will confuse Warrior for being a diverse and technically sound wrestler, but if ya think Savage could've pulled that off with anyone but a few other guys, you're a moron. |
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Post by rey619 on Jun 24, 2010 1:17:34 GMT -5
Yeah...that's kinda what I said. I remember this coming up on the mailing list years ago, the argument about how much Heat (I believe it was actually specifically Charisma we were talking about) does impact match ratings vs should impact match ratings. I really don't like that heat should impact star ratings so much. In my TNAW circuit, Daffney can put on a 3-star match with, say, Madison Rayne due to Rayne having a heat of 9 (like half my roster, really). In SHIMMER (which I run offline on the side), two of the best women wrestlers in the world, Cheerleader Melissa and Sara Del Rey, would have problems reaching 3 stars because Shimmer runs like 6 times a year, and it does take some cards to build heat. |
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Post by tommybrownell on Jun 24, 2010 1:46:49 GMT -5
Which just proves my point that if the audience doesn't care about the people in the ring, it's not a classic.
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Post by LillaThrilla on Jun 24, 2010 9:51:47 GMT -5
I wonder if heat charisma ratings are too high in many TNM exports?
Also, are you running 1 booked card = 1 contract card for TNAW?
Ryan said earler: "The card multiplier helps curb this though, I believe." So try setting your card multiplier to 4 or 5 so you're running 4-5 shows = 1 card = 1 month and the heat issues might be partly solved?
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Post by tommybrownell on Jun 24, 2010 10:08:40 GMT -5
You mean Charisma, right? Heat starts at a default 5 per wrestler, and changes based on booking.
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Crpls
Midcarder
Posts: 140
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Post by Crpls on Jun 24, 2010 12:25:50 GMT -5
LAWL.
For TNM purposes, charisma is basically "over" so there are guys with seem charismatic but still aren't super over. With SE you really have to scale the ratings for guys on all levels (work, charisma, etc) more than you did with FE.
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Post by tommybrownell on Jun 24, 2010 12:32:42 GMT -5
Right...I was just saying, though, that everyone has the same default Heat rating in every circuit. It's Charisma that you can change at the export level.
Carp, do you happen to remember Oliver's Push scale that he posted to the TNM list ages ago? I remember that his scale actually used almost the full 100 point range, but exports almost NEVER go below 50, even for jobbers.
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Post by JoshiQ on Jun 24, 2010 12:36:17 GMT -5
Carp, I don't follow women's wrestling all that much. Who are considered like the top 5 in wrestling today?
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Post by LillaThrilla on Jun 24, 2010 15:29:15 GMT -5
Right...I was just saying, though, that everyone has the same default Heat rating in every circuit. It's Charisma that you can change at the export level. Carp, do you happen to remember Oliver's Push scale that he posted to the TNM list ages ago? I remember that his scale actually used almost the full 100 point range, but exports almost NEVER go below 50, even for jobbers./quote] Yes, I meant Charisma ratings were too high. (Edited that post now.) I wish the TNM list archives hadn't been lost to time. And if neither Carp nor anybody else can come up with said list I propose we come up with a standardized Push scale that goes from 0-100. |
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Post by rey619 on Jun 25, 2010 5:32:01 GMT -5
OK, I actually had to google that... anyway, unless you're into the Joshi scene, I find it very hard to understand that my comment should even be disputed, much less be laughed at. Maybe I should have said North America/USA, but the Joshi scene isn't as it was either. Top 5? Sara, Melissa, Hamada, Mercedes Martinez and... hmm... I'll go for Beth Phoenix, perhaps, but I haven't watched enough of the WWE product for years now. I came up with another example as well. Kobashi's debut in ROH against Samoa Joe was rated 5 stars by Meltzer. The match rating was in large parts due to a tremendous crowd reaction to the match. This would have been impossible in TNM, cause Kobashi would have been virtually unknown to the virtual fans. This could probably have been solved in TweakCirc, adjusting Kobashi's heat to 9 or something. It's too easy to get heat to 9, I think, even if you use the card multiplier. |
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Post by JoshiQ on Jun 25, 2010 7:32:50 GMT -5
OK, I actually had to google that... anyway, unless you're into the Joshi scene, I find it very hard to understand that my comment should even be disputed, much less be laughed at. Maybe I should have said North America/USA, but the Joshi scene isn't as it was either. Don't mind Crpls, he is always a little grumpy. |
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Post by tommybrownell on Jun 25, 2010 12:18:14 GMT -5
OK, I actually had to google that... anyway, unless you're into the Joshi scene, I find it very hard to understand that my comment should even be disputed, much less be laughed at. Maybe I should have said North America/USA, but the Joshi scene isn't as it was either. Top 5? Sara, Melissa, Hamada, Mercedes Martinez and... hmm... I'll go for Beth Phoenix, perhaps, but I haven't watched enough of the WWE product for years now. I came up with another example as well. Kobashi's debut in ROH against Samoa Joe was rated 5 stars by Meltzer. The match rating was in large parts due to a tremendous crowd reaction to the match. This would have been impossible in TNM, cause Kobashi would have been virtually unknown to the virtual fans. This could probably have been solved in TweakCirc, adjusting Kobashi's heat to 9 or something. It's too easy to get heat to 9, I think, even if you use the card multiplier. A couple of points: 1) I don't agree with Dave Meltzer (or the Internet Wrestling Community in general) on much...=P 2) You're right, the best way to simulate it would be to adjust Kobashi's heat...he wasn't unknown to ROH fans...a lot of them had followed his career religiously, and were chomping at the bit to see him and Joe. Another great is example is running a WCW '94 fed, and bringing in Hulk Hogan. Realistically, he starts with much higher heat than 5, because he's Hulk Hogan. 3) Good/great/best is obviously very subjective. The IWC creams themselves over guys like The Motor City Machine Guns. I have seen exactly one Chris Sabin match I have ever liked - a match against Petey Williams in Japan, where they slowed it down and actually told a story - and I have never seen an Alex Shelley match that I have liked. I hatehateHATE their over choreographed dance routine they call wrestling. I hatehateHATE the way Christopher Daniels uses a completely unrealistic moveset that is WAY too "big" for him (which is why I hate to see Daniels trying to wrestle ANYONE larger than him)...I could go on, but I would totally derail the thread. 4) All that said: Yeah, it probably screws up Heat to use it outside of the default, and if changing the card multiplier helps, it's probably a good idea. So far, I haven't noticed anything too crazy about it running a weekly fed on the default contract settings (and the belief is that monthly should be the assumed default). |
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Post by rey619 on Jun 25, 2010 15:50:25 GMT -5
1. Agree with him or not, the point was that crowd heat matters into match ratings, at least when I rate them (and probably Meltzer too). Another example: Tyler Black vs Austin Aries from Final Battle last year. 60 minute time-limit draw. Really old-school feel to it, Aries trying to evade Black most of the match, trying to buy time, stalling, etc.. slow-paced match for the most part (I think you would have liked it).. NY crowd hated it and crapped all over it. I didn't like it either. Then I saw it got rave reviews and how bad the crowd was to crap all over it. Guess I'm a little to carried away by crowd heat, then. You could always ask yourself why Black and Aries didn't change their plan (or went home early) when they felt the reaction, but that's another story.
2. Yup. Hogan's another good example.
3. It's subjective as heck, but I feel that the different styles in wrestling does not apply as much to the women, as they aren't really all that spotty because they, well, doesn't move as fast or jump as high as the guys. Strongest divide must be storytelling wrestlers (such as Allison Danger, Jetta and TBP) and strong-style wrestlers such as those I mentioned.
4. I have been considering actually setting starting heat lower than 5 for unknown wrestlers. Like if I bring in some mid-range indy wrestler to my "mainstream" women's wrestling federation TNAW (like, I dunno.. Portia Perez?), I'll put her at 3 because she is totally unknown to the crowd.
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Post by LillaThrilla on Jun 25, 2010 15:54:24 GMT -5
I'm wonder if it would be a nice addition to TNM to have a Circuit-specific option checkbox for "Technical Circuit" or "ROH-like Circuit" to represent a circuit where the focus is on the in-ring content and less on stuff like promos. This could be represented by using the wrestler's Work Rate instead of their Charisma when calculating Heat. Just an idea... Another great is example is running a WCW '94 fed, and bringing in Hulk Hogan. Realistically, he starts with much higher heat than 5, because he's Hulk Hogan. I did this for my WCW '97, editing Hogan's and Sting's Heat to be 9 before Starrcade '97 because that match was HUGELY anticipated. So far, I haven't noticed anything too crazy about it running a weekly fed on the default contract settings (and the belief is that monthly should be the assumed default). After about 28 cards in my WCW (with Card Multiplier = 2 and PPVs not counting against contracts), here are the wrestlers on my Who's Hot list: Bill Goldberg (undefeated) Sting (World Champion) Scott Steiner (Tag Titles) Chris Adams (being pushed heavily on WCWSN) Chris Benoit (feuding with the same stable - The Flock - for the entire circuit's existence) Eddie Guerrero (has held or feuded over the Cruiserweight Title the entire time) Chris Jericho Ernest Miller Johnny Grunge (TPE were generally kinda popular and I've been pushing them; oddly, Rocco Rock's Heat is still at 5) At least two that are a bit dubious but not ridiculous: Buff Bagwell and Konnan. So far so good. But then we get to random luchadores: Chavo Guerrero Jr, Psychosis, Silver King, and El Dandy (but who are we to doubt him?) Then Yugi Nagata (I guess I've pushed him a bit but Heat of 9?!), Rick Martel (2-7 and Charisma 75 but Heat of 9?!), and Craig Pittman (total jobber at 0-3 but Heat of 8). Hogan and Bret Hart have Heat of 7 (and I don't think I ever adjusted Bret's Heat manually - which I should have to represent how huge it was him coming to WCW). |
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