I nerfed all submissions and it's great

[badger]

I've been playing TNM, strictly unbooked, on and off since probably 1997 or 98. I finally made a big change to fix something that always bugged me. You know what that fix is because it's in the title, so I'll just give a bit of background.

I never liked how TNM implemented submission holds. Oliver could explain it better, but it always seemed like submission holds implement damage X time in the hold. That sounds good in theory but in practice it's always given guys with more submissions an unfair advantage. Over the past few (in-fed) years, my current promotion has been dominated by Jonathan Gresham, Minoru Suzuki, and Timothy Thatcher at various times. The common thread here is all three guys probably have 2-3 submission moves per page. So opponents could be punishing them with suplexes, strikes, etc but then would get their "life bar" murdered in seconds with a submission or two. Seriously, Chris Hero could be pummeling Thatcher with a variety of rolling elbows, he'd be up 85% to 30%, and then Thatcher could turn the tide with a Fujiwara armbar, rope break, and then a drop toehold into a leglock. Finally, I decided to do something about it.

I went through my entire movelist and dropped the damage done for just about every submission move by 20-30 points, some even more, depending on how overpowered it looked like a move was. Hell, I love Kawada, but there's no way a Stretch Plum should do 200 damage. In practice, this change has really balanced TNM and has eliminated a submission move's ability to completely turn a match around. I'd recommend it if you're finding that submission guys are running your feds, but I'd also love Oliver's feedback on whether I've broken TNM doing this.

Oh, speaking of submissions...why is it that submission finishers have such a low win percentage? Like if I'm using Bryan Danielson and the Cattle Mutilation is his finish, odds are maybe 50% he'll win with it the first time he hits it. If his finish is the Busaiku knee, he wins the first time every time.

Anyway, just giving that feedback and suggestion. Thanks!

[tnmlyger]

I don't know which Kawada export you're using but in the one I created, he uses the Stretch Plum as his finisher. So if you have a Stretch Plum submission move doing 200 damage in your DB, you picked it up from somebody not named Peter Abram or me.

I have to stress that point again: Use caution when importing files from sources other than TNM UK or myself. A ton of people still have no clue about properly setting up moves in a way that isn't completely broken.

Your point on submission holds is an interesting one. What I would suggest is that I add a new configuration option to scale damage done by submission moves as a per-circuit setting. I realize you've already done the legwork and nerfed submissions individually but I think being able to do this centrally via TweakCirc is a really good idea.

And no, you're not going to break anything by changing the damage values assigned to individual moves or groups of moves.

[badger]

Thanks, Oliver! I don't have Kawada because I'm running a modern fed, so I really have no idea where this OP stretch plum came from. The idea of adding a config to scale submission damage is a good one.

[BeerGeek]

I don't have an issue with submissions other than when submission moves that are marked as not being able to end a match actually ending matches, especially when it's a rest hold like a side headlock or double reverse chinlock

[badger]

Aug 6, 2022 1:59:45 GMT -5 BeerGeek said:

I don't have an issue with submissions other than when submission moves that are marked as not being able to end a match actually ending matches, especially when it's a rest hold like a side headlock or double reverse chinlock

That's what the C or R buttons are for!