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Post by kingofoldschool on Jun 25, 2010 16:54:00 GMT -5
By the way, tell me what moves you think are insanely duplicated in my database. The only way I can improve it is with feedback.
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Post by JoshiQ on Jun 25, 2010 16:55:04 GMT -5
I could swear that it's wrong, but who am I to doubt Copp?  |
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Post by LillaThrilla on Jun 25, 2010 17:14:31 GMT -5
By the way, tell me what moves you think are insanely duplicated in my database. The only way I can improve it is with feedback. Ditto. |
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Post by tommybrownell on Jun 25, 2010 17:47:05 GMT -5
I'll keep an eye out next time I get some exports...but just about every time I've gotten some since I restarted, TNM gives me the "too many moves" warning, and I wind up seeing stuff like "belly to belly suplex" and "belly-to-belly-suplex", or "drop toe hold" and "drop toehold".
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Post by tommybrownell on Jun 25, 2010 17:49:37 GMT -5
Oliver told me that in the game the sidewalk slam is Bossman's finisher. Also, the following move in TNM is called the side suplex: www.youtube.com/watch?v=amOaIr-A6mISTO and side slam/Rock Bottom are completely different moves, which is why they are listed as separate in my database. I've kept the Soviet suplex name as this is what it was called in TNM originally. That explanation works for me. What I normally think of as a side suplex is also (and probably better known) as the gutwrench suplex. I blame commentators and their overuse of Sidewalk Slam...=) But I do believe that Sidewalk Slam was the actual name of Bossman's finisher when he was Big Bubba, thinking back. |
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Post by JoshiQ on Jun 25, 2010 17:52:36 GMT -5
Gutwrench suplex always had a guy's face downwards to the mat, hooked at the midsection, and then flipped over to land on his back. Anyways, that's what I always thought.
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Post by tommybrownell on Jun 25, 2010 17:55:50 GMT -5
Yeah...but that's also been called a side suplex and a sidewinder suplex.
Btw, if any of you ever decide to be a wrestler...it doesn't matter what you call a move so long as you AND your opponent know what the heck the move is.
One of the guys that trained me was wrestling one of the (then) vets who called an...armdrag, I think...and gave him a vertical suplex.
Yeah.
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Post by JustinCredible on Jun 25, 2010 19:40:36 GMT -5
You are correct sir!
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Post by LillaThrilla on Jun 25, 2010 22:29:19 GMT -5
FWIW one of the old time internet sources of move descriptions the Big Big Book Of Wrestling Moves - www.deathvalleydriver.com/bbbowm/bbbowm.htm - would would agree with the Peter/Oliver definition: Slam, Side AKA Side Suplex Used by: Kevin Nash Description : The attacker reaches around the victim's torso and locks their hands. The attacker lifts the victim up so they are facing upwards and horizontal to the mat. The attacker falls to the mat, dropping the victim back first on the canvas. Slam, Sidewalk Used by : Ron Simmons, Big Bubba/Bossman, Mr. Hughes, The Rock AKA : Seminole Slam (Simmons), Bossman Slam (Bossman), Bubba Slam (Bubba), Rock Bottom (Rock) Description : The attacker is facing the victim. The attacker catches the victim across their chest so the attacker is standing to the side of the victim with their one arm across their chest and under the victim's arms. The attacker lifts the victim up and falls forward, driving the victim back first to the mat. This can be done as a counter to a charging attacker. |
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Post by rey619 on Jun 26, 2010 3:28:31 GMT -5
Btw, if any of you ever decide to be a wrestler...it doesn't matter what you call a move so long as you AND your opponent know what the heck the move is. True that. In a match in my home federation in Norway, Captain Knuckles irish whipped Jonny Puma (yes, that's his wrestler name) and called "calf kick"... as he ran, Jonny Puma turned and yelled to Captain Knuckles: "What move is that?" In a match. In front of a crowd. |
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Post by kingofoldschool on Jun 26, 2010 3:39:06 GMT -5
I'll keep an eye out next time I get some exports...but just about every time I've gotten some since I restarted, TNM gives me the "too many moves" warning, and I wind up seeing stuff like "belly to belly suplex" and "belly-to-belly-suplex", or "drop toe hold" and "drop toehold". I doubt very seriously that you will get cloned moves like that from an export made by myself, as that is my absolute pet hate in TNM. If you do find any TNM UK exports like this though let me know and I'll correct them. Also, I'm currently running TNM with 114 moves over the recommended maximum without any problems. |
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Post by tommybrownell on Jun 26, 2010 5:43:29 GMT -5
Btw, if any of you ever decide to be a wrestler...it doesn't matter what you call a move so long as you AND your opponent know what the heck the move is. True that. In a match in my home federation in Norway, Captain Knuckles irish whipped Jonny Puma (yes, that's his wrestler name) and called "calf kick"... as he ran, Jonny Puma turned and yelled to Captain Knuckles: "What move is that?" In a match. In front of a crowd. .... Holy crap that's awesome. Wow. |
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Post by tommybrownell on Jun 26, 2010 5:47:46 GMT -5
I'll keep an eye out next time I get some exports...but just about every time I've gotten some since I restarted, TNM gives me the "too many moves" warning, and I wind up seeing stuff like "belly to belly suplex" and "belly-to-belly-suplex", or "drop toe hold" and "drop toehold". I doubt very seriously that you will get any cloned moves such as that from exports made by myself, as that is my absolute pet hate in TNM. However, if you find an export like that on TNM UK, let me know and I'll correct it. Also, I'm currently running TNM with around 115 moves over the recommended maximum without any problems. I haven't touched TNM in a few years so I really didn't wanna risk it, as I'm totally digging my current fed...so they last time I added exports (I believe it was an old school pack) I spent a day or so cleaning out the database...I *believe* it was Magister 369's Old School exports was the last one I downloaded that led to me deleting something like 100 moves...manually, because most of them were renamed clones (so the Database Cleaner didn't register them as extraneous). |
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Crpls
Midcarder
Posts: 140
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Post by Crpls on Jun 26, 2010 19:20:41 GMT -5
There is no such thing as a "Soviet suplex," really. Uranage (back throw) is the literal term used in Japan. I suppose Oliver used Soviet suplex due to it's Sambo connections and for a primarily North American audience of TNM.
Sidewalk slam has always been the Boss Man Slam but it was used interchangeably with side suplex by various announcers. Side suplex is Bravo/Nash/Kane/etc. (I could get into the Japanese names which would make it more confusing, but...)
Rock Bottom is Rock Bottom. I mean, honestly, he wasn't the first guy to ever do it, but there really is no better name for it.
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Post by LillaThrilla on Jun 27, 2010 18:03:19 GMT -5
So what is a uranage / soviet suplex / sambo suplex supposed to be? Looking at YouTube, it seems to be that you set the victim up like for a Rock Bottom. But instead of slamming them down next to you instead you sort of fall back and twist, throwing them over you? Want to make sure I'm visualizing the right thing.
And a sidewalk slam / Boss Man Slam / Black Hole Slam is essentially a swinging/spinning Rock Bottom?
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Crpls
Midcarder
Posts: 140
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Post by Crpls on Jun 27, 2010 19:28:30 GMT -5
a uranage is an Exploder without your second arm down to the guys leg, but rather over the back. I'll look for Iizuka or Hase doing it on YouTube or clip something out later.
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Post by LillaThrilla on Jun 28, 2010 15:16:33 GMT -5
a uranage is an Exploder without your second arm down to the guys leg, but rather over the back. Does uranage really need to be a separate move from Exploder the database then? |
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Crpls
Midcarder
Posts: 140
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Post by Crpls on Jun 28, 2010 19:25:36 GMT -5
No, but by that logic you could combine bodyslam/powerslam, flying splash/bodypress/frog splash, etc, etc.
I mean, really, you can do whatever you want with your own database, but I would consider distinct moves based on usage and announcing despite similarity.
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Post by LillaThrilla on Jun 28, 2010 21:37:15 GMT -5
No, but by that logic you could combine bodyslam/powerslam, flying splash/bodypress/frog splash, etc, etc. I mean, really, you can do whatever you want with your own database, but I would consider distinct moves based on usage and announcing despite similarity. Fair enough. Based on all the discussion here I have updated the TNM 3:16 moves list with STO, uranage (aka Soviet suplex), Rock Bottom, sidewalk slam (aka swinging Rock Bottom / Boss Man Slam), and side slam (aka side suplex) as separate moves. |
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Post by LillaThrilla on Jul 3, 2010 16:20:38 GMT -5
Should "elbow to the head" be lumped in with elbowsmash?
Should "elbow to the midsection" be lumped in with "back elbow"?
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Post by tommybrownell on Jul 3, 2010 16:33:24 GMT -5
I could see it on elbow to the head and elbowsmash.
Back elbow, in my experience, is more often than not higher up, and not midsection level.
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Post by BeerGeek on Jul 3, 2010 20:48:29 GMT -5
Actually a side suplex and a sidewalk slam are kind of the same. The side suplex is the move that Dino Bravo and Undertaker often use (WWE miscalled it the sidewalk slam), the side suplex is similar, but different. The side suplex is done while the opponent is in a standing position, the TRUE sidewalk slam is also known as a scrapbuster slam in the SVR games, as well as in Japan, and it's like the side suplex only you have to Irish whip your opponent into the ropes first, or it's done as a counter when the opponent runs toward you
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Crpls
Midcarder
Posts: 140
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Post by Crpls on Jul 3, 2010 22:10:02 GMT -5
A side suplex in Japan is a side buster. Side suplex is used for gutwrench suplex.
Scrap buster is the Boss Man Slam, Black Hole Slam, etc.
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Post by LillaThrilla on Jul 4, 2010 10:14:53 GMT -5
So I've downloaded a fresh copy of TNM7SE5c with no wrestlers and I'm just taking the fresh moves database and making edits and additions to further optimize the Moves List on TNM 3:16 and create a fresh, clean TNM. Which means I'll be picking brains on move questions more than usual.  As I understand it, an Asai moonsault was originally just a dive that Ultimo Dragon did: springboard moonsault from the second rope but to a standing opponent (instead of one on the floor). Lots of other people have taken to using it, but also as a dive from the ring apron to the floor. TNM7SE comes with Asai moonsault in the Moves Database which based on the counters indicates it's the same move but done inside the ring. But does anybody - even Ultimo Dragon - actually do that move in the ring? Then I remember somebody (Jose Fernandez probably) added Asai moonsault bodyblock, which by the name I would think involves springing off the second rope and turning 90 degrees into a cross body block. But I'd also think any move name that ends in MOONSAULT involves splashing a guy on the mat. But is that correct and does anybody even do that move? Then of course Chris Jericho's Lionsault is a springboard moonsault from the second rope, but the opponent is always on the mat. So when I think of an Asai moonsault I think that's what it <i>should</i> be but that's probably a misconception from starting out watching WCW in 97-98. Should Jericho's move just be a springboard moonsault and the fact that it's done from the second rope doesn't really matter for TNM? |
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Post by kingofoldschool on Jul 4, 2010 11:59:05 GMT -5
Should "elbow to the head" be lumped in with elbowsmash? Should "elbow to the midsection" be lumped in with "back elbow"? I use elbowsmash for any kind of elbow strike, except back elbow which I consider to be done to a running opponent out of the ropes. |
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