Moves Questions

[kingofoldschool]

I'm planning to add "full nelson stretch" to my moves database. I consider it be different enough to the standard full nelson, as it is applied to a grounded opponent and seems to be much more devastating.

I'm using the same reasoning here as I did when separating "bridging cobra clutch" from "cobra clutch". I consider the grounded version of the hold a lot more effective.

Thoughts?

[LillaThrilla]

Jul 4, 2010 12:05:03 GMT -5 kingofoldschool said:

I'm planning to add "full nelson stretch" to my moves database. I consider it be different enough to the standard full nelson, as it is applied to a grounded opponent and seems to be much more devastating.

I'm using the same reasoning here as I did when separating "bridging cobra clutch" from "cobra clutch". I consider the grounded version of the hold a lot more effective.

Thoughts?

Cobra clutch and full nelson already have "Any" checked for "Opponent Must Be On". That's enough for me.

[LillaThrilla]

What the heck is a backward bridge? I don't recall ever seeing it used and it doesn't seem to be used as a counter move either.

I see face rake getting used alot as a general counter move. I feel like it should only ever be a Style Specific Counter for Heels (and in some wrestlers regular move sets). Thoughts?

[psz]

Backward Bridge sounds like a pinning position (from a Northern Lights or possibly German Suplex)....


Unless it's when there's a test of strength and one guy's brought all the way back to his head or shoulders.

[Crpls]

Jul 4, 2010 10:14:53 GMT -5 LillaThrilla said:

So I've downloaded a fresh copy of TNM7SE5c with no wrestlers and I'm just taking the fresh moves database and making edits and additions to further optimize the Moves List on TNM 3:16 and create a fresh, clean TNM. Which means I'll be picking brains on move questions more than usual.

As I understand it, an Asai moonsault was originally just a dive that Ultimo Dragon did: springboard moonsault from the second rope but to a standing opponent (instead of one on the floor). Lots of other people have taken to using it, but also as a dive from the ring apron to the floor.

TNM7SE comes with Asai moonsault in the Moves Database which based on the counters indicates it's the same move but done inside the ring. But does anybody - even Ultimo Dragon - actually do that move in the ring?

Then I remember somebody (Jose Fernandez probably) added Asai moonsault bodyblock, which by the name I would think involves springing off the second rope and turning 90 degrees into a cross body block. But I'd also think any move name that ends in MOONSAULT involves splashing a guy on the mat. But is that correct and does anybody even do that move?

Then of course Chris Jericho's Lionsault is a springboard moonsault from the second rope, but the opponent is always on the mat. So when I think of an Asai moonsault I think that's what it <i>should</i> be but that's probably a misconception from starting out watching WCW in 97-98. Should Jericho's move just be a springboard moonsault and the fact that it's done from the second rope doesn't really matter for TNM?

Asai moonsault/quebrada are a springboard (from the second-rope) moonsault to a standing opponent. Originally to the outside, but they're used for the inside version as well.

There really isn't any standardized name for the one to the opponent on the ground, but even NJPW announcers call it a Lionsault on the rare occasion it's used. Indy announcers will generally use Asai moonsault or Lionsault in my experience.

[Crpls]

Jul 4, 2010 13:47:33 GMT -5 LillaThrilla said:

What the heck is a backward bridge? I don't recall ever seeing it used and it doesn't seem to be used as a counter move either.

I see face rake getting used alot as a general counter move. I feel like it should only ever be a Style Specific Counter for Heels (and in some wrestlers regular move sets). Thoughts?

For the most part I try to avoid using it except for brawlers/heels, but sometimes it makes more sense than an elbow smash/punch for certain things. I use it for "can break with" sometimes too.

[kingofoldschool]

Jul 4, 2010 13:47:33 GMT -5 LillaThrilla said:

What the heck is a backward bridge? I don't recall ever seeing it used and it doesn't seem to be used as a counter move either.

It's the bridge part of the "rolling reverse cradle into a bridge" move.

[tommybrownell]

Elix Skipper and Trish Stratus technically use a backward bridge with the "Matrix/Ma-Trish" move, but TNM can simulate that fine with the duck-down move.

[LillaThrilla]

Jul 10, 2010 17:17:07 GMT -5 tommybrownell said:

Elix Skipper and Trish Stratus technically use a backward bridge with the "Matrix/Ma-Trish" move, but TNM can simulate that fine with the duck-down move.

I don't think that's the same kind of backward bridge. Looking at the unchanged TNM entry, the opponent must be on the mat. I think Peter is right that it's the bridge part of an 'rolling reverse cradle into a bridge'.

Speaking of Trish Stratus, the Stratusfaction bulldog looks like a swinging bulldog using the middle rope area instead of the corner. I always thought a springboard bulldog was more like the Steiner Bulldog but from the ropes rather than the turnbuckle. I guess I was mistaken?

[tommybrownell]

I only offered that because it seemed crazy to me that a backward bridge (as in "rolling reverse cradle into a") would be a separate move in ANYONE's database.

[rey619]

Hey guys.

I'm constantly making new exports, female exports mostly (so I'm probably the only ones using them), and I have sometimes problems naming moves. One that repeats itself is when a wrestler is draped on the second rope, and the opponent springs off the opposite rope and jumps on his back, pushing his throat down on the ropes.

The other one is when a wrestler (usually a big one) simply steps on a prone opponent. I would simply say "steps on OPPONENT", but how can I tell TNM to do that?

[LillaThrilla]

Stepping on somebody I would just call a stomp.

As for the 'piggyback throatbuster' thing you describe, I've seen it done but have no idea what it's called. I think usually goes uncalled by announcers.

[rey619]

Maybe you just invented a name for it? Piggyback throatbuster?

[psz]

Wasn't the Ho Train that piggyback thing?

[LillaThrilla]

Jul 11, 2010 13:18:23 GMT -5 psz said:

Wasn't the Ho Train that piggyback thing?

I thought the Ho Train was just an avalanche? Though Godfather might have done that move too.

[psz]

Hmm... I just remember him setting the opponent throat first (well, arms/chest first) on the middle roap, doing the "arm spin" and the "leg dropping" across their back.

[BeerGeek]

I think "The Piggyback Throat Thingy" you are referring to the move that Ray Traylor (Bossman, Bubba Rogers, etc.) used to use where he would run at his opponent and jump on his back while he is lying over the top or second rope.

Is this the move you are referring to:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMzGpb83wIs

It's number 7 on this list: This guy calls it a leapfrog body guillotine

The Big Book of wrestling moves site calls it a vertical splash ring rope clothesline

[LillaThrilla]

Jul 12, 2010 18:36:02 GMT -5 BeerGeek said:

I think "The Piggyback Throat Thingy" you are referring to the move that Ray Traylor (Bossman, Bubba Rogers, etc.) used to use where he would run at his opponent and jump on his back while he is lying over the top or second rope.

Is this the move you are referring to:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMzGpb83wIs

It's number 7 on this list: This guy calls it a leapfrog body guillotine

The Big Book of wrestling moves site calls it a vertical splash ring rope clothesline

Yes, that's the movie I was thinking of. "vertical splash ring rope clothesline" is way too wordy. I'd simplify it to "rope-hung sitdown splash" or something like that.

[LillaThrilla]

How is a leg hammerlock different from a half Boston (half crab / single-leg crab)?

[BeerGeek]

Jul 12, 2010 21:18:26 GMT -5 LillaThrilla said:

How is a leg hammerlock different from a half Boston (half crab / single-leg crab)?

I could say the same for the achilles tendon hold? WTF is thst supposed to be?

[LillaThrilla]

Jul 12, 2010 22:48:11 GMT -5 BeerGeek said:

Jul 12, 2010 21:18:26 GMT -5 LillaThrilla said:

How is a leg hammerlock different from a half Boston (half crab / single-leg crab)?

I could say the same for the achilles tendon hold? WTF is thst supposed to be?

I have an achilles tendon hold as another name for a heel hook, which is a move you see in UFC a fair bit.

[LillaThrilla]

Got a question about ye olde arm-bar:

When I watch UFC, an armbar involves both fighters on the mat. The attacker is on his back and the victim is on his back or stomach. The attacker is perpendicular to the opponent's body. He gets his legs on either side of one of the victim's arms and pulls back, locking the victim's elbow and trying to hyperextended it or break their arm.

When I watch wrestling, an armbar usually involves the victim sitting on the mat (thought occasionally standing?). The attacker sits or kneels behind them, grabs one of their arms, and pulls that arm straight back roughly parallel to the mat up at a 45 degree upward angle. In other words, its a hammerlock but instead of folding their arm against their back you keep the arm straight.

So is the UFC one an armbar and the wrestling one is a Fujiwara armbar? And which kind of armbar is a wakigatame?

Barry Darsow's Barely Legal finisher than he used in WCW wasn't really an armbar even though it was referred to as that often. But I suppose its reasonable to use Fujiwara armbar as a "similiar to" for it.

[tommybrownell]

The UFC one you described is the cross armbar.

The Fujiwara armbar was what Maxx Payne used as the Payne Killer...and Kurasawa used in his short WCW stint...opponent on their stomach, wrestler laying over their arm and wrenching back. Everything I can see, the Fujiwara and wakigatame are the same thing.

The "wrestling armbar" you described is the standard armbar in wrestling.

[vertigo]

Question for King, or really anyone who knows.

If I install a clean TNM and only import the newest exports by King on TNMUK, will I get King's entire database of moves?

[kingofoldschool]

You'll only get the moves which are used by those particular exports. Hold off for a while though as I'm currently cleaning my moves database. I'll release updated export packs when I am done.