|
|
Post by phudjie on Apr 13, 2011 3:47:34 GMT -5
...personally, I left Three-Point Stance in my database, even though, what, like 2 guys use it, (Hacksaw & Dr. Death), I think my counters are a little different though; football tackle is out completely though, I use it in the commentary editor as another term for flying shoulderblock (flying shoulder tackle, football tackle).
|
|
Crpls
Midcarder
Posts: 140
|
Post by Crpls on Apr 13, 2011 21:35:00 GMT -5
A football tackle in wrestling is the same as a shoulderblock, minus the starting stance, so no, it's not even close to the same thing as calling a DDT a front facelock. Should a football tackle be called a tackle? Probably not, but it's wrestling...
I have both football tackle and shoulderblock in the database, which is kind of silly because football tackle is really only used for Hacksaw and Williams, but I mean if I ever change my mind, I can delete it and select the shoulderblock as a replacement.
|
|
|
|
Post by LillaThrilla on Apr 19, 2011 21:01:06 GMT -5
What the heck is the cradle suplex that comes with TNM7? I always thought cradle suplex was just another name for a fisherman suplex (Hennig/Perfect Plex). But the damage is different and the counters are totally different. Fisherman suplex > small package cradle suplex > cross-body block, figure-four leglock, kneelock submission, achilles tendon hold  |
|
Crpls
Midcarder
Posts: 140
|
Post by Crpls on Apr 19, 2011 23:06:11 GMT -5
I believe it's supposed to be Regal's back suplex... but those counters are odd choices (aside from the cross-body block.) Not impossible for style-specific, I guess.
|
|
|
|
Post by theimpalertmx on Apr 19, 2011 23:55:56 GMT -5
I believe the kneelock submission is intended to be of the rolling variety ala Minoru Tanaka (the move he used to beat Takaiwa for his first IWGP Jr Title reign). I'm not quite sure what it considers to be the Achilles tendon hold since I can think of at least four types of leglocks I've seen it applied to outside of TNM. As for the figure-four leglock, I don't know how in the blue hell you could even transition from that position to a figure-four.
If it is intended to be that leg-hook backdrop/belly-to-back suplex then one would think it would have the exact same counters as the standard version.
|
|
Crpls
Midcarder
Posts: 140
|
Post by Crpls on Apr 27, 2011 1:44:57 GMT -5
Honestly, I could see it turned into a figure-four... but it would be more of a single-leg takedown transitioning into a figure-four (or any leg move I suppose.)
As for having the same counters, it depends on who added the move to TNM. My guess is it was Rob or Jose so that may be why it doesn't match a belly-to-back/back suplex.
|
|
|
|
Post by LillaThrilla on Apr 27, 2011 22:02:00 GMT -5
Does the Regal Plex / leg-hook belly-to-back suplex need to be a different move in the database from a regular belly-to-back suplex?
|
|
Crpls
Midcarder
Posts: 140
|
Post by Crpls on Apr 28, 2011 14:59:06 GMT -5
Sure. At least as much as a frog splash and flying splash/bodypress need to be or about 100 other similar moves need to be in a text based sim.
I'd say if anything, the bridging back suplex would be the substitute, since the Regal plex is usually held for a pin.
|
|
|
|
Post by LillaThrilla on May 30, 2011 20:54:56 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by LillaThrilla on May 31, 2011 19:45:33 GMT -5
Working on Dives at the moment. What the heck is a "flagpole drop"?
|
|
|
|
Post by theimpalertmx on Jun 1, 2011 8:03:43 GMT -5
I believe it is this, performed by Matt Cross/M-Dogg 20: youtu.be/vanxC5avXNk?t=1m10sSeems about right, but I wouldn't make a separate move slot for it. I would just put a short lariat in if I wanted him to do it. |
|
|
|
Post by LillaThrilla on Jun 4, 2011 21:34:53 GMT -5
Over-the-shoulder stomachbreaker/gutbuster: is it basically an inverted Canadian backbreaker drop (Albert/A-Train's Train Wreck)? Since an over-the-shoulder backbreaker is called a Canadian backbreaker, does anyone call it a Canadian gutbuster?
Earlier I had been trying to figure out what the "cradle suplex" in TNM7SE is supposed to be as it doesn't seem to be a fisherman suplex (which is what the term usually refers to). The working theory is a Regal Plex (leg hook belly-to-belly suplex). I noticed the Wrestler style-specific counter for a hiptoss is this mystery "cradle suplex". Does that jive with a Regal Plex or should it be something else?
|
|
|
|
Post by theimpalertmx on Jun 4, 2011 23:38:41 GMT -5
I've never even seen anyone use an inverted version of the move period. I don't think it would look very effective (the regular thing usually looks weak as is). Closest things I've seen are done out of gorilla press/toss-up and one done like an Iconoclasm (which in itself was more of a set-up move for a double team).
I can't think of any way that doing a Regalplex as a counter to a hiptoss looks fluid. The wrestler countering would have to block the hiptoss... and then they could do ANY suplex from behind. You could probably do any sort of front suplex without stopping the momentum. A capture suplex (which, you know, is basically the inverted version) would actually make a hell of a lot more sense.
|
|
|
|
Post by allpowerfulgarth on Jun 6, 2011 8:57:00 GMT -5
I'm not sure I've actually seen that inverted gutbuster used by a live person, but it does appear in a couple of the PlayStation 2 SmackDown! games, so that could be the over-the-shoulder stomachbreaker. But I've generally been under the impression that the over-the-shoulder stomachbreaker is a fireman's carry into a gutbuster a la Dean Malenko.
|
|
|
|
Post by LillaThrilla on Jun 17, 2011 17:09:46 GMT -5
My memory is fuzzy: what's the difference between a tope and a tope suicida? I know they're both headfirst dives. I'm thinking tope is over the ropes and tope suicida is between the ropes?
|
|
|
|
Post by theimpalertmx on Jun 18, 2011 21:56:08 GMT -5
You are correct, sir. Anything with "suicida" is between the ropes.
|
|
|
|
Post by LillaThrilla on Jun 24, 2011 19:32:28 GMT -5
I thought a spinning power bomb was just a power bomb where you pick them up, spinning around, and then bomb them.
My regular powerbomb counters:
Default: backdrop
Flyer: Frankensteiner / rana & small package
Shooter: kneebar
But the spinning power bomb has a dizzying array of counters listed:
Default: enzuilariato & bulldog
Technician: backslide & inside cradle
High-Flyer: spinning headscissors & rana
Wrestler: Soviet suplex (uranage) & belly-to-back suplex
Martial Artist: spinning leg lariat & Yakuza kick
Shooter: Fujiwara armbar & choke sleeper (rear naked choke)
What the heck is going on here? Is there something else that "spinning power bomb" might refer to because these counters seem to make no sense to me.
|
|
|
|
Post by theimpalertmx on Jun 25, 2011 0:05:30 GMT -5
Geez, I can't even begin to decipher that one. Maybe it was created thinking of a tilt-a-whirl version? I don't know, but there are a lot of indirect counters there. I don't see any reason why it should have different counters than a regular power bomb.
|
|
|
|
Post by LillaThrilla on Jun 25, 2011 14:18:35 GMT -5
Geez, I can't even begin to decipher that one. Maybe it was created thinking of a tilt-a-whirl version? YES! That makes alot of sense actually. Hadn't thought of that. |
|
|
|
Post by LillaThrilla on Jun 26, 2011 13:55:28 GMT -5
I know a front suplex (front layout suplex) and a vertical facebuster are pretty much the same thing. Does a vertical facebuster specifically refer to the layout/sitout version (like R-Truth's Truth Conviction / Hat Rack Crack) or are they fairly interchangeable?
Do you think the layout/sitout version needs to be a separate move from the regular standing/kneeling version?
Speaking of separate versions of similar moves: do you feel a jumping power bomb or jumping piledriver need to be separate moves in TNM from their regular versions?
Does jack-knife power bomb need to be a separate move from a regular power bomb? The only difference as I understand is the jack-knife pin at the end of the former - which would be represented by a Automatic Pinfall being checked. Except TNM has that checked for a regular power bomb too. Otherwise the counters are all the same and I don't suppose the damage should be different either. Not to mention the confusion caused by Kevin Nash using a regular power bomb but calling it the Jackknife Powerbomb.
|
|
|
|
Post by theimpalertmx on Jun 26, 2011 23:44:08 GMT -5
I think the two are interchangeable. Keep it to either front layout suplex or vertical facebuster; the overhead belly-to-belly suplex is often called a front suplex in Japan. I don't think you need to create different versions of it... and by this token I'd stick to calling it a vertical facebuster.
I don't think a jumping power bomb or a jumping piledriver is necessary. I don't know if you have a Liger Bomb in there, but if you do that is more reason not to leave a jumping power bomb (even though there is a slight difference).
Jack-knife power bomb... hmmm, I'd say leave it out. Kobashi is the only one I've ever seen use it and though I haven't seen any NOAH in the past two years I find it hard to believe that he'll ever do it again because of his knees. You could probably make 50 power bombs if you wanted to. I mean, I'm just thinking of all the ones in Fire Pro games. If you were to put in every little variation you'd take up a lot of valuable space. In that regard I only separate power bombs when the delivery is different i.e. Doctor Bomb, Thunder Fire Power Bomb, etc. How they end the move is irrelevant to me, it's not worth wasting the space.
|
|
|
|
Post by LillaThrilla on Jun 27, 2011 8:08:12 GMT -5
overhead belly-to-belly suplex is often called a front suplex in Japan. Damn you, Japan! Your contrary move naming conventions make my life difficult! Jack-knife power bomb... hmmm, I'd say leave it out. Kobashi is the only one I've ever seen use it and though I haven't seen any NOAH in the past two years I find it hard to believe that he'll ever do it again because of his knees. You could probably make 50 power bombs if you wanted to. I mean, I'm just thinking of all the ones in Fire Pro games. If you were to put in every little variation you'd take up a lot of valuable space. In that regard I only separate power bombs when the delivery is different i.e. Doctor Bomb, Thunder Fire Power Bomb, etc. How they end the move is irrelevant to me, it's not worth wasting the space. Current power bombs on my list besides a basic power bomb: running power bomb (Dragon Bomb / Running Liger Bomb) sitdown power bomb (Liger Bomb / Batista Bomb) spinning power bomb (power bomb with a spin) Thunder Fire Power Bomb (one shoulder power bomb) Blue Thunder Bomb (back suplex into a power bomb) crucifix power bomb (Splash Mountain/Niagara Driver/Razor's Edge) fireman's carry power bomb (Rack Bomb) Ganso Bomb (sheer drop power bomb) gutwrench power bomb (Doctor Bomb) inverted power bomb (Dominator/Drug Bomb) Orange Crush Bomb (vertical suplex into a power bomb) pumphandle power bomb tilt-a-whirl power bomb (tilt-a-whirl into a power bomb) choke bomb (double arm choke slam / choke lift into a power bomb) choke slam power bomb (Miracle Ecstasy) double underhook power bomb tiger driver (sitout double underhook powerbomb) |
|
|
|
Post by LillaThrilla on Jun 27, 2011 21:02:21 GMT -5
Are there any counters to a Codebreaker or reverse lung blower (i.e. to the stomach not the back)?
Could you counter an exploder/t-bone suplex with a DDT? Looks to me like it's possible due to the attacker's head placement.
|
|
|
|
Post by snabbit888 on Jun 27, 2011 21:56:29 GMT -5
Yes, DDT works as a counter for t-bone suplex.
And the only counter I can possibly think of for the Codebreaker is maybe some sort of leglock since Jericho gets his leg up near the man's arms. You in theory could hook a leg and turn it into a single-leg Boston crab, but I may be stretching here.
|
|
|
|
Post by JoshiQ on Jun 27, 2011 22:01:05 GMT -5
I actually think, since the knees are together, that a regular Boston Crab is the perfect counter to the Codebreaker. You'd just need to try and pull your head back as the guy is trying to force your head down into his knees. He'd then land on his back, knees together, and in position.
|
|
