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Post by mkpunk on Aug 15, 2020 17:24:08 GMT -5
I got a few questions: First why is the base power bomb in game a pinning move? Does date back to "stacked pin" bombs from Japan in 1990's as oppose to the Sid power bombs of the same time? Second why do lump sitout bomb variations with non-sitouts? For example Splash Mountain is used for both the traditional Razor's Edge style crucifix power bombs and the sitout variations like seen more so in Japan or done by Roman Reigns. Another example would be Tiger Driver for the sitout pearl river plunges or the more jacknife variations as seen with Regal and Jamie Noble. I wish I could say it is an issues of unused variations, but yet Burning Hammers, Emerald Flowsions and Gano Bombs are in the game and are far more "rare" as a normal move than a Razor's Edge or jacknife double underhook bomb.
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Post by tnmlyger on Aug 16, 2020 0:09:55 GMT -5
When TNM was first created, there were wrestlers who used the power bomb as a finisher (Sid, Tenryu, ...) and there were wrestlers who didn't. However, the wrestlers who used power bombs in matches always pinned after executing the move. That's why it was modelled this way.
Everything else is because the person creating a certain export file decided to do it this way. We had a few people who were lucha specialists, a few people who specialized in indy wrestlers, I did Japan (guys), two guys did the joshi wrestlers, and so on.
Ever since Peter and I started working closely together about five years ago, this has been more of a surgical process where even minute consequences to match flow are discussed, tested, and tweaked until they are as accurate as possible in the current match engine setup. But before then, it's obvious today that there were different levels of understanding the consequences of the design choices.
Peter and I have been tweaking existing moves for the past year or so which is the reason why every TNM installer now comes with the option to replace existing moves in a database you're importing with the most recent versions.
The tricky part has always been that once a move is in your move database, it will not get replaced anymore when you import wrestlers who may have a more recent version of that move. The reasoning behind this is obvious: many users make changes to their move databases to better suit their preferences, and if I were to just overwrite their changes every time they imported a wrestler, let's just say there wouldn't be a lot of happy faces ;-)
The upside to this is that if you don't want the power bomb to be a pinning move by default, just change it on your copy and you will never have to deal with it again.
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Post by mkpunk on Sept 5, 2020 15:20:33 GMT -5
I was looking at updating Akira Taue like I have done with some other TMM7 era Japan exports. I was wondering what his Dynamic Suplex would be in game? I can't say I've seen him do it. It is described as a reverse double overlook suplex. Is that like a trapping suplex?
Also I was wondering if the belly-tp-back side slam, the hiptoss neckbreaker and the vertical suplex side slam would work as his variations of the Nodawa Otoshi (Chokeslam) in those spots.
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Post by tnmlyger on Sept 5, 2020 15:26:18 GMT -5
The uranage (Hiroshi Hase's move) is called the Soviet Suplex in TNM.
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Post by BeerGeek on Oct 26, 2021 22:37:10 GMT -5
Can someone tell me the difference between a kneebar and a kneelock submission? Been a while since I've been in the forum. I used to know the difference but I just need a refresher
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Post by tnmlyger on Oct 29, 2021 1:25:38 GMT -5
A kneelock submission starts out as a spinning toe hold and then the wrestler stops mid-motion and twists the knee to the side.
A kneebar is a move where you scissor the opponent's leg with yours and drop back to the ground in a straight motion.
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Post by LillaThrilla on Oct 29, 2021 16:22:26 GMT -5
A kneelock submission starts out as a spinning toe hold and then the wrestler stops mid-motion and twists the knee to the side. A kneebar is a move where you scissor the opponent's leg with yours and drop back to the ground in a straight motion. A kneebar is a legit MMA move (just ask Brock Lesnar) while I'm thinking a kneelock not so much? A kneebar is also basically an armbar, but to the leg. Which would probably be clearer if wrestling announcers didn't also use the term armbar to refer to wristlocks, standing armlocks, arm wringers, and various other restholds that twist/pull/bend the arm but aren't true armbars. (Jericho's 1004 Moves presumably distinguishes between all of these.)
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Post by tnmlyger on Oct 30, 2021 4:06:16 GMT -5
Yes, Josh. That's correct. And when I created both moves, MMA didn't exist yet :-)
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Post by BeerGeek on May 2, 2022 10:46:46 GMT -5
Confused on two moves, or are they the same move with two different name? The double leg cradle and the backward bridge. I know the double leg cradle is basically the jack-knife cradle/pin, but what is a backward bridge?
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Post by disarm316 on Feb 17, 2023 20:48:41 GMT -5
Confused on two moves, or are they the same move with two different name? The double leg cradle and the backward bridge. I know the double leg cradle is basically the jack-knife cradle/pin, but what is a backward bridge? How about an answer a full 10 months later? The backward bridge is Bob Backlund's bridging reverse cradle that he often ended matches with--and in 1992-93, before his heel turn when he switched back to the chicken wing, he often would just step into the move with his opponent down--pulling up on the legs and then leaning back. If you watch his match with Kimchee on Raw from the night after WrestleMania 9 if you have Peacock, you can see him win with this move. It's different from a "rolling reverse cradle into a bridge" because it skips the "rolling reverse cradle" part.
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moppelfuzz
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Post by moppelfuzz on Apr 7, 2023 20:31:15 GMT -5
A lot of exports have a move called "jumping bomb". I can't find that move on any move lists on TNM 3:16, UK or .com and Google doesn't help either - I just got results for the Jumping Bomb Angels.^^
Is this some variation of the power bomb or something? Maybe sitout or Liger bomb? Or is this something completely different?
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Post by LillaThrilla on Apr 13, 2023 20:13:10 GMT -5
Confused on two moves, or are they the same move with two different name? The double leg cradle and the backward bridge. I know the double leg cradle is basically the jack-knife cradle/pin, but what is a backward bridge? IIRC, backward bridge was only ever used as counter move. A lot of exports have a move called "jumping bomb". I can't find that move on any move lists on TNM 3:16, UK or .com and Google doesn't help either - I just got results for the Jumping Bomb Angels.^^ Is this some variation of the power bomb or something? Maybe sitout or Liger bomb? Or is this something completely different? I would check the move counters. Most likely it's intended to refer to some kind of jumping power bomb, but it's also possible it might refer to a jumping senton bomb (i.e. backsplash).
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moppelfuzz
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Post by moppelfuzz on Apr 15, 2023 11:12:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the tip. The given counter is a backdrop. The opponent must be on his feet and it's an automatic pinfall attempt. So yeah, sounds like a power bomb variant.
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Post by mkpunk on Aug 6, 2023 1:08:48 GMT -5
About the back suplex/belly-to-back suplex/backdrop suplex debate:
I think we should rename them to backdrop suplex period namely for the avalanche/top-rope variant. I cannot recall the Scott Hall back suplex off the second rope ever being called a belly-to-back superplex. I plus back superplex just sounds kinda stupid correct? top-rope backdrop suplex sounds the most logical. What does everyone else think?
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Post by kingofoldschool on Aug 28, 2023 10:32:35 GMT -5
About the back suplex/belly-to-back suplex/backdrop suplex debate: I think we should rename them to backdrop suplex period namely for the avalanche/top-rope variant. I cannot recall the Scott Hall back suplex off the second rope ever being called a belly-to-back superplex. I plus back superplex just sounds kinda stupid correct? top-rope backdrop suplex sounds the most logical. What does everyone else think? Just to clarify - back suplex and belly-to-back suplex are different holds. The traditional back suplex is where you stand next to your opponent (starts the same as an atomic drop) but you then drop backwards. The belly-to-back suplex is carried out like a German suplex, minus the bridge/pin. This is NOT a release German suplex, which is thrown with force; a belly-to-back suplex isn't. I agree that back superplex does not sound right, but I think belly-to-back superplex is the widely accepted term. I appreciate that this terminology contradicts what I have said above! To be honest I am against renaming current moves which are already out there. A lot of folks would end up with several differently-named duplicates with the next file they import. And as long as we have to deal with DOS, we can't risk this blowing up folks' TNM. Especially with 20+ years' worth of export files with the old names out there.
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moppelfuzz
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Post by moppelfuzz on Sept 1, 2023 12:27:33 GMT -5
Just to clarify - back suplex and belly-to-back suplex are different holds. The traditional back suplex is where you stand next to your opponent (starts the same as an atomic drop) but you then drop backwards. The belly-to-back suplex is carried out like a German suplex, minus the bridge/pin. This is NOT a release German suplex, which is thrown with force; a belly-to-back suplex isn't. Makes fully sense what you say here. But then just for your interest: on your own move list you identify the back suplex as "Other names/Minor variants" move for the belly-to-back suplex yourself (knew that because I'm completely rearrange my own move database at the moment with help of your list and the ones of Oliver and Thrilla because I'd reached the limit for moves, hahaha). What's your excuse, sir?
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Post by kingofoldschool on Sept 2, 2023 3:00:12 GMT -5
Just to clarify - back suplex and belly-to-back suplex are different holds. The traditional back suplex is where you stand next to your opponent (starts the same as an atomic drop) but you then drop backwards. The belly-to-back suplex is carried out like a German suplex, minus the bridge/pin. This is NOT a release German suplex, which is thrown with force; a belly-to-back suplex isn't. Makes fully sense what you say here. But then just for your interest: on your own move list you identify the back suplex as "Other names/Minor variants" move for the belly-to-back suplex yourself (knew that because I'm completely rearrange my own move database at the moment with help of your list and the ones of Oliver and Thrilla because I'd reached the limit for moves, hahaha). What's your excuse, sir? Ah that list from TNM UK is wildly out of date! Please don’t refer to that and instead us this one: www.tnm7.com/cgi-bin/rmcms.cgi?module=moves&action=si&layout=index&query=
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Post by moppelfuzz on Sept 3, 2023 18:02:25 GMT -5
Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification. Hmm, that sucks because I of course know that list but I don't like it much since it basically just have the name of the moves and maybe some wrestlers who use it, but this little helpful more me. Yours and the list from TNM 3:16 (http://www.joshism.net/tnm/moves.html) is way better to see which move is in the database twice under different names.
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Post by mkpunk on Sept 8, 2023 22:56:48 GMT -5
About the back suplex/belly-to-back suplex/backdrop suplex debate: I think we should rename them to backdrop suplex period namely for the avalanche/top-rope variant. I cannot recall the Scott Hall back suplex off the second rope ever being called a belly-to-back superplex. I plus back superplex just sounds kinda stupid correct? top-rope backdrop suplex sounds the most logical. What does everyone else think? Just to clarify - back suplex and belly-to-back suplex are different holds. The traditional back suplex is where you stand next to your opponent (starts the same as an atomic drop) but you then drop backwards. The belly-to-back suplex is carried out like a German suplex, minus the bridge/pin. This is NOT a release German suplex, which is thrown with force; a belly-to-back suplex isn't. I agree that back superplex does not sound right, but I think belly-to-back superplex is the widely accepted term. I appreciate that this terminology contradicts what I have said above! To be honest I am against renaming current moves which are already out there. A lot of folks would end up with several differently-named duplicates with the next file they import. And as long as we have to deal with DOS, we can't risk this blowing up folks' TNM. Especially with 20+ years' worth of export files with the old names out there. So a belly-to-back suplex is a low angle release German suplex? Lots of places call it a back suplex similar to sidewalk slam vs. side suplex.
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