Work Rate = 100

[LillaThrilla]

What's the biggest wrestler (height and/or weight) you can think of that you think should have a TNM Work Rate of 100?

Work Rate is always a controversial topic because some people dislike certain styles; they get bored by technical wrestling or spot monkeys or brawling. Are there any wrestlers you think that pretty much everyone can agree should have a TNM Work Rate of 100? Benoit? Angle early in his career? A healthy Shawn Michaels?

I would think Bret Hart and Ric Flair are probably the most controversial 100 Work Rate candidates. They have many fans, but I've heard people criticize the Hitman's move set as being too repetitive and narrow (Five Moves Of Doom!) and for every guy who thinks Flair could carry a broom to a 5 star mtach there is someone who thinks he is just charisma, overselling, and some wicked chops.

[psz]

I'd say the folks you listed (Benoit, Angle, HBK), and I'd add CM Punk, AJ Styles, Eddie, and Malenko.

[JoshiQ]

Biggest wrestler that would come close to me would probably be Vader from about 1990-1995.

As for obvious 100's, I'd say Michaels is more controversial to me than Hart. Early Angle was really good, but I don't know if I'd put him at 100. Or if I did, he definitely drops after the Benoit feud finished.

IMO, Hart, Flair, Benoit are easy 100's. Michaels probably fits in there. I'm not experienced enough in Japanese to say who there.

And from what I've seen, I might put Samoa Joe close to 100 from his stuff before TNA.

[tommybrownell]

It's funny that people criticize Hart, when Kurt Angle wrestles the same main event match every time (Spoiler: You will see the ankle lock about five times, and Angle will kick out his opponent's finisher about five times).

I don't know if any wrestler had as many great matches with as many otherwise unremarkable workers as Ric Flair did.

AJ is one of the few guys I might would consider it, because he's made Daniels look good, he's had some classics with Abyss, great stuff with Jarrett, Samoa Joe, Sting...you name it. In fact, the only guy I don't like to see him work is Angle, because Angle shoehorns him into his God awful "big match formula".

[JoshiQ]

I'm happy you and I agree on Angle. He had its moments way back in early 2000's, but his shtick is way beyond old by now. And he always forces the wrestler to wrestle Angle's match instead of the other way around. You always know that if it's a big match that his opponent will probably use the Ankle Lock on Angle, Angle will use the Angle Slam about 4 times, the Ankle Lock will be countered in CRAZY NEW WAYS and so forth. I wouldn't mind seeing him just trying to do an old fashioned brawl for once.

I could see AJ Styles being up there. He does pull off great matches with a wide variety of wrestlers.

There were times when I thought Arn Anderson was close, but I never understood why he didn't ever seem to have a great match with Sting. Maybe it was just me, but I can't remember a great match he has had with him. It's weird considering how many matches he probably has had with Sting.

[tommybrownell]

Some guys just don't have chemistry together, and some guys (who otherwise aren't great) have TREMENDOUS chemistry together.

That could easily be the Sting-Arn thing.

I mean, I don't think it was because of Vader OR Sting that they had so many great matches together...I think it was Vader AND Sting. They really clicked.

Funny you mention Anderson, actually...I remember his short "feud" with Flair (that was the set up to the swerve on Sting and forming the Horsemen with Pillman and Benoit)...Flair vs Anderson should have been an instant classic without trying (even if they were past their prime) and yet...? Eh.

I'm not a big fan of Rey or CM Punk (especially Rey the last few years) but they have amazing chemistry together. Dolph Ziggler and Kane are two other guys who get overlooked a lot and probably could have had some near-classics if they were given the time and opportunity, because their series a while back was really good.

[Crpls]

Punk probably doesn't deserve a 100 workrate, but if there was a separate for category for "getting it" in the ring, he would probably deserve a 110. I don't even like him a whole lot, but he knows how to put a match together with pretty much anyone from the extremely overrated time limit draws with Joe in ROH to Rey to Taker to Hardy, etc.

Also, 5 Moves O' Doom > 300 lb Briscoe Brother (Joe.)

[Crpls]

HBK is like Cena. He's like Rock. He's like Taker. Or they're like him. If you think the WWE Main Event style is GOOD, then how you could argue he's not one of the best ever is beyond me. If you think it's utter shit, then yeah, extremely overrated.

[JoshiQ]

Agree with you there, Carp. Although I would say Michaels is a bit of a better worker than Cena, Rock, or Taker. Maybe not by a whole lot, but to me Michaels would be more of an around 100 workrate while the other 3 would probably be around 90-95. And I don't even like Michaels.

[Crpls]

He's certainly a better wrestler, but in the others defense, he had time to hone his skills. I mean, think about it this way. If Rock and Cena took as long in the WWE to rise to the top as HBK did, Rock would've been gone to Hollywood for almost 2 years by then and Cena would've JUST gotten their now. (And Taker, of course, is all gimmick.)

[plutar]

I used to think that taker was all gimmick until I saw his last 2 mania matches where he worked his butt off. That dive he missed (on purpose) at 'mania 25 was so awesome. Lately I find myself thinking that Charisma and workrate are so tightly related. A good heel back in the 80s wouldn't always dazzle you with a million kewl moooves but every move would matter. I fell asleep watching Steamboat/Savage from Wrestlemania 3 earlier this week but I've been eating up Thunderbolt Patterson and Pez Whatley squash matches from 80s WCW lately. I kind of wish the workrate and charisma options would be replaced with some sort of hybrid setting.

[tommybrownell]

You...didn't just call Pez Whatley more charismatic than Randy Savage, did you?

'Taker's not ALL gimmick...Lord knows he USED to be, but he actually went to the trouble of trying to get better while being heavily protected. Not saying he's mega-awesome, but more than just gimmick.

I dunno how to figure it. Dean Malenko? Technical master. Only time anyone gave a crap in WCW was when Jericho was being superheel opposite him. Kevin Nash? Most will agree he's incredibly charismatic...but the number of GOOD matches he's been in have been small, and the number of GREAT matches are probably non existent.

I definitely agree about guys, especially heels, trying to hit tons of awesome moves, half of which don't matter. When I started wrestling I tried to work a bunch of stuff in, and my mentor - who has a very old school approach - smacked me in the head and told me to punch, kick, choke. I did THAT (plus some headbutts) for a few shows and suddenly I was over...=P

[LillaThrilla]

One think that surely hurt Taker's skills was wrestling against so many worthless lugs. Fake Taker? Sid? Giant Gonzalez? He spent nearly his first decade wrestling against bad wrestlers.

I haven't seen Savage-Steamboat at Wrestlemania, but I recently saw the match that kicked off that fued and was impressed by both guys.

I also watched the famous Hogan-Warrior match from Wrestlemania. It's a terrible match from one perspective: stalling, lots of restholds (Gorilla Monsoon actually talks up a FRONT FACELOCK), an extended sequence of fighting over a test of strength, and Warrior pins Hogan immediately after the missed Big Leg Drop. It's well booked, well commentated, and the crowd was hot so it has an entertainment value. But I wouldn't call it a 5 star match.

I need to fire up TNM and run two matches: Hogan vs Warrior normally then Hogan vs Warrior with Heat = 10 for both guys. Curious to see the ratings difference. Because while neither guy probably had Work Rate > 50 in that match, both were rocking Charisma = 100 and Heat = 10 in that match.

Wrestling matches are like movies: there's a quality value (Work Rate) and an entertainment value (Charisma). A quality movie (wins 10 Oscars) can be boring, even if all aspects it are polished and well executed. Yet a movie can still be entertaining if the dialogue is weak, the plot is simple, the events are unrealistic (you have to reload guns?!), but it is presented in a fun an exciting manner (read: 95% of action movies ever made). Great movies usually have both; same with wrestling matches.

[LillaThrilla]

I just ran Hollywood Hogan vs Jim Duggan twice in a test circuit. Both wrestlers have similar stats: Work Rate = 50, Push = 100, Stamina = 65, Charisma = 100. As an added bonus, Duggan is a Face while Hogan is a heel.

With clear queues and Heat = 5 for both wrestlers, I book Hogan to win in 15 minutes with the Big Leg Drop. Rating: -3 stars

Then I go into TweakCirc SE and give both wrestlers Heat = 10 and set all 4 slots of their Queues to each other. Then I book the same match again: Hogan winning in 15 minutes with the Big Leg Drop. Rating: -3 1/4 stars.

Lets try Warrior and Hogan. Warrior has Work Rate 50, Push 100, Stamina 70, and I've bumped his Charisma to 100. Warrior is a face and Hogan is a heel for this; they were both faces when they met and Wrestlemania but a Face-Hell matchup should only help I'd think. With clear Queues and Heat = 5, lets try a shorter match for these two: Warrior with the Big Splash in 10 minutes. Rating? - 2 3/4 stars.

Lets try again with both guys Heat = 10 and their Queues filled with each other and the same finish (Big Splash at 10 minute mark): -2 stars.

Leaving the full Queues and Heat = 10, lets try the Wrestlemania finish: Warrior over Hogan via Big Splash in 22 minutes, immediately after a Hogan Big Leg Drop. Rating: -2 1/2 stars.

It doesn't seem that the Heat or Queues are helping at all here.

Let's try the opposite: Chris Benoit ZZZ (a Clone of Chris Benoit: Work Rate 100, Push 90, Stamina 100, but Charisma lowered to 50) and Dean Malenko (respective stats of 100-80-100-50). I let TNM resolve the match. Benoit wins with a gutwrench suplex in 15 minutes. 2 1/2 star rating.

I then run another match, this time using the real Benoit export (identical to Benoit ZZZ except Charisma = 90) against the same Dean Malenko. I booked Benoit to win the same way TNM had just randomly determined he would: gutwrench suplex in 15 minutes. 4 1/2 star rating.

To see if that was a fluke I immediately ran the same match again (including booking) and got a 3 1/2 star rating.

This is rather limited testing but it seems that Charisma and Heat don't help much if your Work Rate and Stamina are lousy.

Jul 4, 2010 20:22:32 GMT -5 plutar said:

I fell asleep watching Steamboat/Savage from Wrestlemania 3

Just finally watched this match on YouTube. Seems like a pretty good match to me. Though Savage uses the elbow as often as Triple H used to use the knee. Good story too as Savage tries (and fails) to use the ring bell again and ends up losing because of his own heelish mistakes.

Gorilla and Ventura were a great commentary team.

[Crpls]

I used to think that taker was all gimmick until I saw his last 2 mania matches where he worked his butt off. That dive he missed (on purpose) at 'mania 25 was so awesome.

Oh. I'm not saying Taker doesn't work his butt off, he does, especially the last few years. Also to note, his matches with HBK on PPV were awesome in late 97/98 as well. Those two just work well together since HBK does his best to kill himself for the dead man, and both are incredible at knowing when to do things in the ring (or, um, outside it.)

[psz]

One thing that you MUST remember about the Savage/Steamboat Mania match is this:

It was one of the first of it's kind in terms of Fully Rehearsed Matches. This lead it to be *VERY* crisp compared to 99% of matches at the time, and leading up to it.



It's kinda like trying to explain Black Sabbath's first album to someone who grew up listening to Megadeth, Panterra and Metallica: No, it's NOT as heavy as any of those bands... But you have to understand what it was competing against, and what was going on in the same biz leading up to it: At the time, NOTHING was like it. Same with that match.

That's one thing TNM can never duplicate: That "WOW" factor of something basically unheard of prior (Though Oliver has commented that a circuit will "learn" your style, it's not the same)

[tommybrownell]

Jul 5, 2010 19:14:07 GMT -5 Crpls said:

I used to think that taker was all gimmick until I saw his last 2 mania matches where he worked his butt off. That dive he missed (on purpose) at 'mania 25 was so awesome.

Oh. I'm not saying Taker doesn't work his butt off, he does, especially the last few years. Also to note, his matches with HBK on PPV were awesome in late 97/98 as well. Those two just work well together since HBK does his best to kill himself for the dead man, and both are incredible at knowing when to do things in the ring (or, um, outside it.)

Except for Tombstones on the floor in the middle of the match.

WTF was that all about?

Except for that right there, I put their second WM match above their first.

[ultramagnus]

I thought Undertaker's stuff with Vader in 1997 was pretty good. Not as good as it could have been, but still pretty good.

How did Curt Hennig not come up in this thread at all?!