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Post by imtheniz on Jun 30, 2011 20:46:14 GMT -5
I really enjoy creating wrestler exports in TNM7. I enjoy watching YouTube clips, and doing research, in an effort to create the most accurate exports possible. With that said, I can't seem to get motivated on a project that I would really like to complete - creating the most accurate exports possible for the current WWE roster.
I have decided to offer an opportunity up to everyone here. Would you be interested in making this a group project? This way we can complete the project much quicker, make it much more accurate, and it could be a very rewarding experience.
My idea was that I could start by picking a wrestler. Let's say Alberto De Rio. From there, we all do a little digging, and come back here to list moves, argue about stats, etc, until we feel satisfied with Del Rio's export, and are ready to move onto the next wrestler.
I think I am going to work on this either way, but it would be much more fun to have some of the best contributors in this community helping make this special.
Let me know if there is any interest...
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Post by snabbit888 on Jun 30, 2011 20:57:01 GMT -5
I like the idea, and I am willing to offer contributions. I'm not in a mindset to create those wrestlers (my TNM is set up for 1979 as we speak and I'd have to set up a whole other TNM which is a bit of an undertaking right now), but I will offer whatever I can in terms of argument.
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Post by imtheniz on Jun 30, 2011 21:05:01 GMT -5
I was planning on taking the reigns as far as entering the exports into TNM. I was just hoping we could get a little team together that checked this thread out regularly and contributed.
How about we just go ahead and start and see what happens. We will begin by creating Alberto Del Rio. I will create a post below this one that I will update as we dig up new information. This will be a trial run to see how quickly we can pump these guys out.
EDIT: Actually, I will list three guys at a time below, in case some people would rather help with certain people, but not others.
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Post by imtheniz on Jun 30, 2011 21:07:33 GMT -5
Alberto Del Rio
Height: 6'5" Weight: 263 lbs. From: San Luis Potosi, Mexico Build:
Work Rate: Push: Stamina: Charisma:
Manager: Ricardo Rodriguez Interference Rating (1-10): Toughness Rating (1-10):
ATTRIBUTES - check all that apply. Heel Tactics: X Foreign Object: Uses Chairs: Sits Up: No-Sells: Cocky: X Juices: Hard To Pin: Hulk-Up: Doesn't Submit: Rarely Submits: Does Moves Through Tables: Hardcore Wrestler: Walks Out: Begs Off: Springs Up: Springs Off Chairs: Skins The Cat:
Finisher: Cross Armbreaker Finisher Similar To: Counter 1: Counter 2: Setup Move: Secondary Finisher:
STYLES - check all that apply. Technician: Brawler: High-Flyer: Powerhouse: Wrestler: Heel: Old Style: Marital Artist: Shooter: Must Not Use Default Counters:
Dives:
Moves: - Powerslam - Back Suplex - Scoop Powerslam - Hammerlock Powerslam - Enziguiri To Arm - Springboard Enziguiri - Spine Buster - Arm Grab Hotshot - Double Knee Armbreaker
Cross Corner Move:
Combo (Setup Move and Follow-Up Move):
Corner Moves:
Desperation Move:
Working The Crowd String:
More coming soon....
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Post by imtheniz on Jun 30, 2011 21:10:37 GMT -5
R-Truth
Height: 6'2" Weight: 235 lbs. From: Charlotte, N.C.
Work Rate: Push: Stamina: Charisma:
ATTRIBUTES - check all that apply. Heel Tactics: X Foreign Object: Uses Chairs: Sits Up: No-Sells: Cocky: Juices: Hard To Pin: Hulk-Up: Doesn't Submit: Rarely Submits: Does Moves Through Tables: Hardcore Wrestler: Walks Out: Begs Off: Springs Up: Springs Off Chairs: Skins The Cat:
Finisher: What's Up Finisher Similar To: Counter 1: Counter 2: Setup Move: Secondary Finisher: Lie Detector
STYLES - check all that apply. Technician: Brawler: High-Flyer: Powerhouse: Wrestler: Heel: Old Style: Marital Artist: Shooter: Must Not Use Default Counters:
Dives:
Moves:
Cross Corner Move:
Combo (Setup Move and Follow-Up Move):
Corner Moves:
Desperation Move:
Working The Crowd String:
More coming soon....
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Post by JoshiQ on Jun 30, 2011 21:12:14 GMT -5
Love the idea. I'm probably going to only be able to help with the arguments towards work rate, charisma and such, but I'm game.
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Post by imtheniz on Jun 30, 2011 21:12:25 GMT -5
Randy Orton
Height: 6'4" Weight: 245 lbs. From: St. Louis, Mo.
Work Rate: Push: Stamina: Charisma:
ATTRIBUTES - check all that apply. Heel Tactics: Foreign Object: Uses Chairs: Sits Up: No-Sells: Cocky: Juices: Hard To Pin: Hulk-Up: Doesn't Submit: Rarely Submits: Does Moves Through Tables: Hardcore Wrestler: Walks Out: Begs Off: Springs Up: Springs Off Chairs: Skins The Cat:
Finisher: RKO Finisher Similar To: Counter 1: Counter 2: Setup Move: Secondary Finisher: Second Rope DDT?
STYLES - check all that apply. Technician: Brawler: High-Flyer: Powerhouse: Wrestler: Heel: Old Style: Marital Artist: Shooter: Must Not Use Default Counters:
Dives:
Moves:
Cross Corner Move:
Combo (Setup Move and Follow-Up Move):
Corner Moves:
Desperation Move:
Working The Crowd String:
More coming soon....
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Post by imtheniz on Jun 30, 2011 21:16:11 GMT -5
I'm not exactly sure how we get started on this, so I guess pick a wrestler and offer up as much information as you can. Keep in mind, we are creating TNM exports here, so anything that goes into TNM will need to be accounted for.
For example, I know R-Truth's finishing move is the Lie Detector. But it would help to know what move this can be compared to in TNM, so that I can give it the proper damage value, etc.
EDIT: Actually, after a quick YouTube search, it appears the Lie Detector is actually his old finishing move .
His new one is called the What's Up.
Now the question is, can anyone put into words what these moves are? Or, do we need to create our own damage values for them because they don't compare to a move in your database?
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Post by JoshiQ on Jun 30, 2011 21:21:21 GMT -5
You probably want to give an idea what an average wrestler would look like for workrate and charisma. I don't know if Dolph Ziggler would fit that role? And if he did have an average workrate and average charisma, would that be 75 and 75? We discussed this a bit in another thread, but it'd be nice to start with somebody to look to so we can judge their stats.
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Post by imtheniz on Jun 30, 2011 21:27:26 GMT -5
You probably want to give an idea what an average wrestler would look like for workrate and charisma. I don't know if Dolph Ziggler would fit that role? And if he did have an average workrate and average charisma, would that be 75 and 75? We discussed this a bit in another thread, but it'd be nice to start with somebody to look to so we can judge their stats. I did see that other thread. I'm with you, though. In my book, an average wrestler in TNM would be a 75. Dolph Ziggler seems like an excellent choice to use for comparison. Unless someone thinks of a better example, I say that initially, we assume Ziggler is a 75 and 75 in workrate and charisma, and base our arguments off of that.
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Post by JoshiQ on Jun 30, 2011 21:50:38 GMT -5
Just to get some conversation going:
Alberto Del Rio Work Rate - 87 Charisma - 90 Push - 88
R Truth Work Rate - 70 Charisma - 85 (Heel R Truth) Push - 85
Randy Orton Work Rate - 75 Charisma - 90 Push - 100
I hate Orton, but I know I hate Orton, so I might be ranking him higher so I don't look like a ... well, a Randy Orton hater.
That's just off the top of my head without doing a lot of thinking. Not really sure how to rate them when it comes to stamina and push. I just took a stab at the push. I need to open up TNM and remind myself what they all need to make an export.
Like I said, the above is definitely open for opinions. Just what I thought today. Tomorrow I might change my mind.
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Post by imtheniz on Jun 30, 2011 21:55:31 GMT -5
Thanks for the conversation starter. Tomorrow when I get some more time, I will list all the categories needed in order to create an export so it will be easier for people to contribute.
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Post by JoshiQ on Jun 30, 2011 22:10:12 GMT -5
I feel so dirty for putting Orton that high on work rate and charisma. Never ask me to do Edge. It might make me vomit.
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Post by imtheniz on Jul 1, 2011 15:20:07 GMT -5
I went ahead and added most of the TNM export fields under each wrestler that I listed above. Now the hard part, filling in all the information...
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Post by rebelins313 on Jul 1, 2011 15:52:32 GMT -5
This is a cool idea and would probably help me get more involved in WWE as a whole since I don't watch it much anymore. I'll be down to help.
To help with the conversation on work rate, charisma, etc. I'd rate the three something like this
Alberto Del Rio Workrate: 85 Charisma: 93 Push: 85
R-Truth Workrate: 75 Charisma: 85 Push: 78
Randy Orton Workrate: 75 Charisma: 90 Push: 100
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Post by theimpalertmx on Jul 2, 2011 9:03:44 GMT -5
You know you can just take the last WWE pack on TNM-UK and Peter's exports that are posted on TNM 3:16 as a base. It's going to make your life a hell of a lot easier.
You saw the tests that Josh ran. I did my own tests based on my idea of using the SS-F rank for the whole WWE roster. I took the bases of what I had and tweaked their attributes to fit my scale. What I found was my intial theory proved to be quite accurate: In using my system the results were exactly what I expected with a margin of error of +/- 2.5. I was planning on posting my results here, but I'm on a new computer now with Windows 7 so I still have to download DOS-Box and then transfer my TNMs from my old computer.
Now, I'm not saying I'm the end all authority on things, but Dolph Ziggler should not be considered the "average wrestler." He is a good worker with above average to good charisma. His stats should definitely be higher than 75. However, to each his own. I don't see them as being accepted as the community "standard," though. As it is we are just getting to the meat of what that standard should be. However, once you do have some of the exports created I would suggest running test matches and posting your results.
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Post by JoshiQ on Jul 2, 2011 9:18:02 GMT -5
Not to derail the thread, but I just can't see Ziggler as much more than a Billy Gunn. And it's not because he uses a Rocker Dropper. It feels like he gets most of his heat from Vickie Guerrero, and he doesn't seem to pull out any must-watch matches. This is strictly off what I've seen from stuff he has done as Dolph (and I guess, Spirit Squad), and not from his time in developmental. When Dolph comes on, it isn't enough to make me change the channel, but he also doesn't make me pay any more attention to the television.
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Post by imtheniz on Jul 2, 2011 9:21:41 GMT -5
You know you can just take the last WWE pack on TNM-UK and Peter's exports that are posted on TNM 3:16 as a base. It's going to make your life a hell of a lot easier. You saw the tests that Josh ran. I did my own tests based on my idea of using the SS-F rank for the whole WWE roster. I took the bases of what I had and tweaked their attributes to fit my scale. What I found was my intial theory proved to be quite accurate: In using my system the results were exactly what I expected with a margin of error of +/- 2.5. I was planning on posting my results here, but I'm on a new computer now with Windows 7 so I still have to download DOS-Box and then transfer my TNMs from my old computer. Now, I'm not saying I'm the end all authority on things, but Dolph Ziggler should not be considered the "average wrestler." He is a good worker with above average to good charisma. His stats should definitely be higher than 75. However, to each his own. I don't see them as being accepted as the community "standard," though. As it is we are just getting to the meat of what that standard should be. However, once you do have some of the exports created I would suggest running test matches and posting your results. Dolph Ziggler does not need to be a 75, that was just one poster's opinion that I mostly agreed with. I realize that the argument over assigning values to wrestler's work rate and charisma can become a never ending dispute, as we've seen on these boards time and time again. I think the purpose of making Dolph Ziggler a 75 was to give us a starting point. After taking a better look at the work rate thread that is going on here, I think we were wrong to make Dolph a 75. A 75 is only producing a one or two star worker, which Dolph is clearly better than. It appears there is much more wiggle room between an 80 and 100 than I originally thought. I would love to have you assign values to the three guys we are working on now, and explain your reasoning a bit to help us better understand your POV.
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Post by imtheniz on Jul 2, 2011 9:25:15 GMT -5
Not to derail the thread, but I just can't see Ziggler as much more than a Billy Gunn. And it's not because he uses a Rocker Dropper. It feels like he gets most of his heat from Vickie Guerrero, and he doesn't seem to pull out any must-watch matches. This is strictly off what I've seen from stuff he has done as Dolph (and I guess, Spirit Squad), and not from his time in developmental. When Dolph comes on, it isn't enough to make me change the channel, but he also doesn't make me pay any more attention to the television. I am a pretty avid WWE viewer, and I will say Dolph is better than Billy Gunn. He has a legit collegiate wrestling background, and during his recent matches with Kofi Kingston, he has proven to be a pretty good worker. I agree with you that his heat comes because of Vickie, but that has to be considered when rating Dolph. He hasn't developed a lot of charisma yet without her, but with her, he gets a lot of heat.
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Post by JoshiQ on Jul 2, 2011 9:34:23 GMT -5
Not to derail the thread, but I just can't see Ziggler as much more than a Billy Gunn. And it's not because he uses a Rocker Dropper. It feels like he gets most of his heat from Vickie Guerrero, and he doesn't seem to pull out any must-watch matches. This is strictly off what I've seen from stuff he has done as Dolph (and I guess, Spirit Squad), and not from his time in developmental. When Dolph comes on, it isn't enough to make me change the channel, but he also doesn't make me pay any more attention to the television. I am a pretty avid WWE viewer, and I will say Dolph is better than Billy Gunn. He has a legit collegiate wrestling background, and during his recent matches with Kofi Kingston, he has proven to be a pretty good worker. I agree with you that his heat comes because of Vickie, but that has to be considered when rating Dolph. He hasn't developed a lot of charisma yet without her, but with her, he gets a lot of heat. If a 75 only pulls off a * rating then yeah, I'd probably push him up to an 80 or so. Maybe an 82. Because I know he can pull off ** to ** 1/2 matches on a pretty regular basis. But I don't think he should be pulling out *** 1/2 very often, I just haven't seen it. I also don't think you can use Vickie to determine Dolph's heat. If somebody is going to import Dolph to use them in their indy circuit, they may not be using Vickie. So why would Dolph be getting insane heat in TNM when in real life he would not be without Vickie? Edit: Of course, if this is just for WWE-2011 then I could see it making sense to use Dolph's heat with Vickie. I was going off the basis of what the wrestlers would do by themselves. It's just that when I am import an export I don't want them giving me Rick Rude's charisma when he was with Bobby Heenan. I want them giving me his charisma alone. It's too bad TNM doesn't have something where you can set the modifiers a manager would give a wrestler. Like +10 charisma or something. Or maybe it does, and I just haven't seen it.
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Post by rebelins313 on Jul 2, 2011 9:47:17 GMT -5
Fellow Josh, Ziggler is a pretty good worker but he does seem to flounder with weaker peers. He's definitely better than Gunn, i wouldn't put him as the "average" WWE worker. Here's some good stuff between Ziggler and Daniel Bryan. (Note: Danielson is probably the best worker in the states and the WWE guy I would give the highest workrate to but that doesn't discount how good Ziggler is in these matches)
They also had the match at Bragging Rights which I half-halfheartedly searched for and can't find. Good stuff though.
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Post by JoshiQ on Jul 2, 2011 9:52:54 GMT -5
Rebelins, thanks for the matches. I agree he can have a good match, and maybe I'm being rough on him with the Billy Gunn comparison. But I just have a hard time ever finding a match where he pulls somebody up to a better match.
He might just not be my style, most of the current WWE isn't.
Of course, I think Yokozuna is a better worker than he gets credit for. So, eh. Guess agree to disagree.
Interested to see where you guys go with a standard set then? Ted DiBiase Jr.? Of course, his charisma is below average.
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Post by imtheniz on Jul 2, 2011 9:53:58 GMT -5
I've added some moves to Alberto Del Rio above, using this video as a guide...
Take a look, and let me know if any of these moves that have unusual names are actually other moves that may be in TNM already. If not, maybe some of them need renamed and then created, which means we need to assign damage values.
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Post by rebelins313 on Jul 2, 2011 9:54:57 GMT -5
This may be a little off track but one thing about workrate in general when it comes to TNM is you can put a guy at 75 or even 70 or whatever and they can still have good matches in TNM land. One thing to focus on if you're making accurate exports is the situation the wrestler is in. You hardly ever see a ***+ match on WWE TV. Sometimes you'll get it on PPVs and you can even have ****+ matches of course. One of my biggest complaints with TNM over the years is how "good" matches end up. I think there are far too many ***** matches that one can produce between two good to great workers if you book the match a certain way. An example would be in my current fed PINNACLE I've had 4 ***** matches in 16 cards. That's crazy, ***** matches are ones you'd rate as some of the best of all-time and rarely come along, I've always felt the match ratings in TNM are too high.
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Post by rebelins313 on Jul 2, 2011 9:57:42 GMT -5
Of course, I think Yokozuna is a better worker than he gets credit for. So, eh. Guess agree to disagree. Interested to see where you guys go with a standard set then? Ted DiBiase Jr.? Of course, his charisma is below average. Yoko was a very good worker I think. For a guy that size to move the way he did, he really excelled at the pacing and storytelling side of matches which you have to consider when looking at wrestlers. He isn't pulling out 409282093 MOVEZ~! but he had a very effective offense, was booked accordingly and did a great job in the ring. DiBiase Jr. is a below average worker, he has good matches from time to time but isn't effective at selling IMO. He has good punches though.
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