|
Post by gentlemanjeff on Feb 9, 2013 14:32:48 GMT -5
Hi everyone, So I'd like to get back into 'rasslin bookin, but I'm sick of TNM7's hangups: deleting moves by hand, running through DosBox, etc. Plus, I don't pay any attention to the matches themselves anyways, so it's really just a contract management/match rating/injury generating system. I'd like to design a replacement for TNM7. I think we're all more interested in telling stories than designing a complex game ala Total Extreme Wrestling, so it should be simple. Something that aids the booker but doesn't bog them down with details. I've been thinking--what do I really rely on TNM7 to do? Here are the things TNM7 does when running a circuit: - Determines if a I can hire a wrestler
- Determines if a wrestler quits/gives notice
- Tracks a wrestler's heat in the circuit
- Rates the quality of a match and decides how that contributes to a wrestler's heat
- Determine whether a wrestler suffers an injury and, if so, how long he's out of action
- Determines if a wrestler no-shows an event
And that's it. That's not that much (I left out things like push because I don't think too many of us run unbooked). Also, I'm sure we all store our results and track our rosters separately in Excel/Word/this message board, anyhow. Let's develop rules to replace the above. I've started working on an Excel spreadsheet to handle card/roster management, but even that is probably overthinking it. Walking through it step-by-step: - Hiring -- I know TNM7 takes factors like push/heel-face complement/previous encounters into account, but I think we can all handle that on our own. I think simply saying any wrestler you target has a 10% of turning you down is fine.
- Quitting/giving notice -- Again, I know TNM7 takes a lot of stuff into account, but for simplicity's sake I'd just make this random and justify it post-hoc. Lower card guy quits? Not getting an opportunity. Main event guy quits? Not happy with his contract. After every card, I'm thinking there's a 10% chance a wrestler or tag team quits (that 10% assumes 12 cards a year in a historical regional circuit, I'd lower it if you run more cards or are in the modern era).
- No shows -- I'd just say a wrestler has a 1% of no-showing for any given match. I'd roll this before the show starts so you can hastily re-book.
- Match ratings -- I actually have an Excel formula I'm pretty happy with for star ratings that's essentially a random number and the average workrate of the workers involved on a normal distribution. Could easily be tweaked to account for charisma, heat or stipulations--that is, giving wrestlers a slight bonus for participating in MITB/HITC/cage/ladder matches. This would be difficult to reduce to dice, however.
- Heat -- If you want to track heat, you'd need some kind of roll that takes into account (a) the rating of the match and (b) the wrestler's charisma. Success bumps heat up by one or two (that's how TNM seems to work).
- Injuries -- Something simple like a 1% chance for injury for every wrestler in every card. Not sure what the distribution of the injury should be--the minimum should probably be 1 and the maximum 24 (so one month to two years).
What do you think? Any theories for handling some of the trickier items--match ratings, heat checks, and injuries?
|
|
|
Post by JoshiQ on Feb 9, 2013 22:08:30 GMT -5
You are right. That is pretty much what I use TNM for. I don't think I've sat down and watched a match in over a decade. It would still take a pretty good Excel file for me to give it up though. Interested to see where this goes.
|
|
|
Post by thesubverse on Feb 10, 2013 12:54:58 GMT -5
What we really need is someone to come along and completely rewrite and recode TNM to make it function on modern operating system. I know it'll never happen and would be impossibly difficult, but it'd be nice.
|
|
|
Post by Rick Garrard on Apr 10, 2013 12:57:31 GMT -5
Maybe this is something that should be farmed out to a site like Kickstarter... Just a thought.
|
|
|
Post by LillaThrilla on Apr 19, 2013 20:23:48 GMT -5
Maybe this is something that should be farmed out to a site like Kickstarter... Good thought. I think the biggest problem is not funding, but finding someone who both has the programming savvy AND has the knowledge and interest about wrestling. I thought Kickstarter was "I want to make this thing so please give me money" not "We will give money to someone if they will make this thing"?
|
|
|
Post by KWOAOA on May 10, 2013 23:46:41 GMT -5
I gotta admit, I agree with you guys... Don't get me wrong much like all of you I love TNM7 its a amazing game.. It's fun to run on a older computer and easy, however when you get to a newer machine a 64bit machine TNM7 becomes kinda a pain to run... I love playing around with it but the amount of time one must use to play around with it or set things up at times is a lil excessive.
I would love to see something new come out, I'm not a fan of TEW.. Perhaps its the little things like I can't output so I can't really run a site with it.
As much as I would like to say I'd donate some coin towards someone putting out something new, sadly and honestly I am broke... Unemployment has kicked my ass for a number of years... But I would gladly help test the software if it ever did get up and running... If I could help code things I would as well.
As for Kickstarter I don't recommend it... It is more of a "I want to make this so please pay me to make it" sort of ordeal and to be honest I think the list of people who would put money towards it are no doubt as exclusive as the frequent login list here on this message board.
That and if it came down to "I need money otherwise nothing will happen" then sadly consider it buried before it gets started... Kinda the similar story when it comes to Extreme Reunion... I know I read a lil while back that Shane Douglas wanted the fans to donate money to get it on TV and what not, to be honest I don't see Extreme Reunion getting on TV nor do I see anything big happening with it..
But if there is anything I can do to help, I'd gladly consider it.
Kennie
|
|
|
Post by Carlzilla on Jul 7, 2013 15:35:07 GMT -5
I know this is a fairly old topic, but I figured I'd throw my .02 in since I've been back in the swing of TNM for a week or two now...
I've thought and thought about writing a simple (that would eventually get fleshed out) replacement for TNM that runs on modern windows.
My biggest issue is writing an in-depth match engine. A basic engine that would simulate enough factors to determine a winner in an unbooked situation wouldn't be a big deal, but one that outputs everything move by move, position by position, etc. would be a huge undertaking, and since I rarely read matches, would be something that would be for others, and not myself. So I guess I'm asking, how important is that to everyone?
Also, if I was to undertake something like this, I wouldn't charge for it. I'd just feel shitty charging for it, but I wouldn't want to throw tons of hours into it and get nothing in return, so my second question is how many of you would throw a few bucks my way as a "donation" IF I delivered something that you enjoyed using?
|
|
|
Post by murphy42782 on Jul 7, 2013 16:00:21 GMT -5
I for one never read the matches, I care more for results and matxh ratings. I would donate aa long as it sims injuries, hiring, firing, contracts, etc
|
|
|
Post by Carlzilla on Jul 7, 2013 16:12:19 GMT -5
I for one never read the matches, I care more for results and matxh ratings. I would donate aa long as it sims injuries, hiring, firing, contracts, etc It would simulate all that stuff.
|
|
|
Post by snabbit888 on Jul 7, 2013 16:19:51 GMT -5
I would be willing to donate for that too.
I honestly don't think a move-by-move output is really necessary at this point. I know TEW doesn't use one, but then again every wrestler only gets assigned like 2 moves. I think something in between TNM and TEW would be great. Wrestlers can have fleshed out movesets, but we don't need to see screen after screen of "Shawn Michaels punches Bret Hart."
I would think the more detail, the better as far as running the actual circuit though. Hirings, firings, backstage heat, injuries, career-ending injuries, possibly Wellness test failures, arrests for DUIs, that sort of thing. I guess the only "big thing" I wouldn't be all that concerned with is specific finances. That's one of the things about TEW I don't really like. I don't always want my booking to be dependent on whether I'm making money. I could be in the minority there.
|
|
|
Post by Carlzilla on Jul 7, 2013 17:13:40 GMT -5
I would be willing to donate for that too. I honestly don't think a move-by-move output is really necessary at this point. I know TEW doesn't use one, but then again every wrestler only gets assigned like 2 moves. I think something in between TNM and TEW would be great. Wrestlers can have fleshed out movesets, but we don't need to see screen after screen of "Shawn Michaels punches Bret Hart." I would think the more detail, the better as far as running the actual circuit though. Hirings, firings, backstage heat, injuries, career-ending injuries, possibly Wellness test failures, arrests for DUIs, that sort of thing. I guess the only "big thing" I wouldn't be all that concerned with is specific finances. That's one of the things about TEW I don't really like. I don't always want my booking to be dependent on whether I'm making money. I could be in the minority there. Yeah, the wrestlers would still have full movesets, since I still want unbooked sims to be possible. It would just use them behind the scenes instead of printing out a play-by-play that almost no one reads. I don't want finances involved either. I want to replace TNM not recreate TEW. I think that some random events like Wellness test failures and DUI arrests are interesting ideas. I'd have to figure out how to keep guys like CM Punk from having those sort of "random" drug related events from popping up though. Injuries are a no-brainer, and career ending injuries are certainly a possibility as well.
|
|
|
Post by Carlzilla on Jul 7, 2013 22:27:49 GMT -5
So I'm working on banging out a simple prototype. Right now it deals well with REAL basic hiring / firing / roster management, REAL basic title management, and the infrastructure for injuries both temporary and career ending in in place for when I get to the match engine. Here's a very early, very basic screen shot:
|
|
|
Post by murphy42782 on Jul 7, 2013 23:05:23 GMT -5
Also being able to add remove wrestlers for.historical reasons. I'd Like to be able to do historical feds
|
|
|
Post by Carlzilla on Jul 7, 2013 23:07:45 GMT -5
Also being able to add remove wrestlers for.historical reasons. I'd Like to be able to do historical feds If you can elaborate or give an example, I'll see if it's feasible.
|
|
|
Post by snabbit888 on Jul 7, 2013 23:31:35 GMT -5
Looks good so far. Another thing I would like that I think others might enjoy as well is some way to build in a calendar. The card multiplier can get confusing, and it would be nice to actually hire someone for 36 months and then when each month ticks over, it takes off a card instead of having to do the math that gets wonky if you have a month that has more cards for whatever reason. Does that make sense?
|
|
|
Post by Carlzilla on Jul 7, 2013 23:49:04 GMT -5
Looks good so far. Another thing I would like that I think others might enjoy as well is some way to build in a calendar. The card multiplier can get confusing, and it would be nice to actually hire someone for 36 months and then when each month ticks over, it takes off a card instead of having to do the math that gets wonky if you have a month that has more cards for whatever reason. Does that make sense? I could set it up so that you would have to manually tell it the month is over. Sort of like an "end month" button. Until you hit that button, the "end of the month" calculations and clean-up would not trigger. Meaning you could have 30 cards (or more) in one month if you wanted to, and it would still only count against the hired wrestlers as one month.
|
|
|
Post by rey619 on Jul 8, 2013 4:57:23 GMT -5
I would definitely donate too. Double donation for Mac-version. Quadruple for an iPad version ;D
I am more or less on board with every suggestion from you Carl and Ryan. I don't really need a fleshed out moveset either at this point, but I know many run TNM unbooked, so that's fine. Do we need to make new exports entirely for this, or can we import/convert from TNM?
Is it possible to be able to book a "segment" (video, interview, whatever) that is rated according to charisma? If this is doable, I think it will be a good thing, as you can have charisma-strong and workrate-poor workers contribute to the show. In the same vein, is it possible to have managers on contract too? Right now, I feel it's more or less up to me when the manager's contract expire.
|
|
|
Post by murphy42782 on Jul 8, 2013 5:07:50 GMT -5
I mean like, right now im in 1952, so only wrestlers wrestling in 52 are available, because I import guys at beginning of year they made irl debut, and I delete guys after their retirement/death whichever comes first. basically id like to be able to manipulate database of wrestlers.
|
|
|
Post by mdale2k on Jul 8, 2013 7:45:05 GMT -5
I'd donate as well. Look forward to seeing how this progresses.
|
|
|
Post by JoshiQ on Jul 8, 2013 9:35:57 GMT -5
I'd donate towards it. Love the idea. With the way I run TNM, I don't need the match to run in front of me. I'd be happy with booking a match and it showing me the end result (like TNM does), but don't need to see the blow by blow.
It is all about the contracts, booking cards and getting match ratings, heat ratings, hiring/firing/quitting, and things along those lines. Of course, I hardly use any of TNM's extra features. If there wasn't a ladder match in TNM then I would just edit the results of a basic match. That type of stuff doesn't matter much to me.
|
|
|
Post by mdale2k on Jul 8, 2013 10:57:21 GMT -5
If contracts were by month (which I would prefer to cards) is if you can try to re-sign someone entering the last month or with like 5 cards remaining...Be more true to life
|
|
|
Post by hammerfist on Jul 8, 2013 11:31:54 GMT -5
I also would donate for this, particularly since the computer I had with TNM just fizzled on me and it's pain to get it running on my newer one.
|
|
|
Post by Carlzilla on Jul 8, 2013 12:28:40 GMT -5
If contracts were by month (which I would prefer to cards) is if you can try to re-sign someone entering the last month or with like 5 cards remaining...Be more true to life Yeah, that's easy enough to add in.
|
|
|
Post by Carlzilla on Jul 8, 2013 12:35:45 GMT -5
I mean like, right now im in 1952, so only wrestlers wrestling in 52 are available, because I import guys at beginning of year they made irl debut, and I delete guys after their retirement/death whichever comes first. basically id like to be able to manipulate database of wrestlers. I'm not sure this is going to be possible. Instead of one huge data file containing all wrestlers, each wrestler will be it's own data file. This makes sharing easy, removes the issue of dirty exports with tons of garbage moves/managers/etc. You can of course simply manually keep the files of wrestlers that are "active" in your time period in the WRESTLERS folder and ones that aren't in an "INACTIVE" folder or whatever.
|
|
|
Post by snabbit888 on Jul 8, 2013 13:30:30 GMT -5
I'd donate towards it. Love the idea. With the way I run TNM, I don't need the match to run in front of me. I'd be happy with booking a match and it showing me the end result (like TNM does), but don't need to see the blow by blow. It is all about the contracts, booking cards and getting match ratings, heat ratings, hiring/firing/quitting, and things along those lines. Of course, I hardly use any of TNM's extra features. If there wasn't a ladder match in TNM then I would just edit the results of a basic match. That type of stuff doesn't matter much to me. I don't think I'm quite on board with that exactly. I think the different type of matches is important because there's a bump in match quality and how the match is perceived if it's a gimmick. Like at Wrestlemania 10, HBK vs. Razor would have been good if it was a singles match, no doubt, but the ladder made it GREAT. A 6-pack challenge can be really good, but make it MITB and it gets a star quality bump based on what the match is.
|
|