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Post by snabbit888 on Jul 11, 2013 12:50:49 GMT -5
I'm not sure if this would factor in to the "no sells/works stiff" fields, but another vice/personality trait could be if they are hard to work with or how much of a problem they are in the locker room. So like someone like The Undertaker would be highly respected in the locker room but like a mid-90s Shawn Michaels would be super difficult to work with.
Otherwise, this is looking pretty awesome already.
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Post by hammerfist on Jul 11, 2013 13:22:39 GMT -5
This is looking really good. Are you not using Stamina as a wrestler stat? That definitely would affect how much of a pace and match length they could handle (and could work against/in favor of a wrestler in certain match types).
Would body type (athletic, muscular, bulky, etc.) be something that would matter?
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Post by Carlzilla on Jul 11, 2013 13:47:26 GMT -5
This is looking really good. Are you not using Stamina as a wrestler stat? That definitely would affect how much of a pace and match length they could handle (and could work against/in favor of a wrestler in certain match types). Would body type (athletic, muscular, bulky, etc.) be something that would matter? Stamina could be a decent addition actually. Body type not so much. I never was sure what it did in TNM either.
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Post by seanzarelli on Jul 11, 2013 14:29:22 GMT -5
Body type not so much. I never was sure what it did in TNM either. If anything, may have had some type of weight on the match rating as sometimes when larger wrestlers are pitted against smaller wrestlers, sometimes the quality of the match is knocked down. That would be my only guess.
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Post by hammerfist on Jul 11, 2013 17:01:18 GMT -5
I was never sure what body type did either. I don't think it had anything to do with limiting what moves could be performed depending on your opponent's size, that was set elsewhere.
Should something like Bleeder be added to personality? Guys like Abdullah the Butcher would be busted open more frequently than others. Some wrestlers would never be busted open (at least on purpose).
And should Cheats be a Personality trait? That one might depend on if they are a heel or not, but some faces are not above cheating.
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Post by Carlzilla on Jul 11, 2013 20:17:18 GMT -5
Without a move by move report, would it matter if a guy was bleeding? I don't think it would. Maybe it'd bump up the match score a tiny bit, but I think it's pretty negligible unless you're reading a full on match report really.
I think "uses weapons" is a better way of dealing with "cheats". As some faces were not above using weapons, and it would have an actual effect on the non-play-by-play match engine.
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Post by mdale2k on Jul 12, 2013 9:01:28 GMT -5
Bleeding doesn't really need its own stat (my feelings), as you can just add like Carl said. Body type, i never knew what it did in TNM.
PS: This is looking awesome.
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Post by Carlzilla on Jul 12, 2013 9:02:35 GMT -5
Did a little bit of work on the match processing engine.
Right now, it only does singles matches, and it does a pretty good job of determining a winner based on push. So a (very) small step in right direction.
It also processes booked results with no issues. Unlike TNM, which was just move and time, you can enter very exact match ending information here.
For example:
The time, and event were specified by me when I booked the match as "by pinfall in 13:42, after Jim Neidhart interfered on Bret Hart's behalf, hitting him with the Powerslam."
Much nicer than the old TNM standard in my opinion:
So as you can see, that line can be very versatile, containing as much or little information as you need to book the outcome you want without needing to use something like circuit editor after the fact.
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Post by Carlzilla on Jul 12, 2013 11:26:37 GMT -5
The match engine just did it's first 3 way dance. Huzzah!
Obviously some adjustments to the text need to be made, but the fact that they work at all is a good thing.
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Post by Carlzilla on Jul 12, 2013 12:03:00 GMT -5
...and now the multi-wrestler text issue is fixed.
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Post by snabbit888 on Jul 12, 2013 12:20:35 GMT -5
So as of now, nothing to do with star ratings yet? Either way, pretty exciting that you're getting your first couple of matches up and going. Two things: When are you going to start taking up donations? I'd like to get you a little going when you do so you can stay motivated on this. It's entirely selfish, but I am super excited for this. Also, let me know when you're ready for an outside beta test. We're all pretty good at figuring out ways to break TNM, so surely we can do the same for this program.
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Post by rey619 on Jul 12, 2013 12:33:57 GMT -5
Yeah, this looks awesome. Just let us know when we can start giving you our money.
Can I ask about the algorithm you'll be using for hiring/quitting? Or if anyone know how this was handled in TNM. To my knowledge, a wrestler not being used on a certain percentage of the shows could lead to him quitting. This is especially troublesome if you have a secondary brand (like NXT), meaning that most likely, John Cena will have a bigger chance of quitting WWE because he's not in the developmental show.
Recognition will probably play a factor though.
The one thing with TNM was
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Post by Carlzilla on Jul 12, 2013 13:23:50 GMT -5
Battle royals!
I only have 3 wrestler files right now, so lots of repeats.
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Post by Carlzilla on Jul 12, 2013 13:32:03 GMT -5
So as of now, nothing to do with star ratings yet? Either way, pretty exciting that you're getting your first couple of matches up and going. This is not even integrated in the circuit manager yet. It's just a standalone match engine that reads the same data files. It will be used as a basis for the match engine in the main program. It's in "pre-alpha" state right now. Yeah, it doesn't do ratings yet. That's on my "to-do" list. Two things: When are you going to start taking up donations? I'd like to get you a little going when you do so you can stay motivated on this. It's entirely selfish, but I am super excited for this. Not until I can release a working, but probably barebones, alpha program to you guys. My goal is to get all the basic functions of running a fed and all the basic matches working and working well before I start accepting donations. That way even if some things can't be done for whatever reason, I'm still delivering a working product that can be used, and no one can yell "RIP OFF!" Not that I think any of you would, but this makes me feel better, since I'm actually providing something before I start asking for handouts. Also, let me know when you're ready for an outside beta test. We're all pretty good at figuring out ways to break TNM, so surely we can do the same for this program. It'll be an open test, and I'll let everyone know. We're probably a few weeks away from that, but since this is a hobby program, it's hard to put an exact time frame on it. That is the point at which I'll open up donations.
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Post by Carlzilla on Jul 12, 2013 13:40:59 GMT -5
Can I ask about the algorithm you'll be using for hiring/quitting? Or if anyone know how this was handled in TNM. To my knowledge, a wrestler not being used on a certain percentage of the shows could lead to him quitting. This is especially troublesome if you have a secondary brand (like NXT), meaning that most likely, John Cena will have a bigger chance of quitting WWE because he's not in the developmental show. Recognition will probably play a factor though. I honestly don't have an exact algorithm yet. Right now this is how it works: You need to score 1.25 to hire a wrestler. Part of it is random, and part of it you have direct control over. It checks your federation's size against the recognition and creates a modifier. Fed Size / Recognition = modifier Then it generates a random number that can effectively double your modifier Then it takes into account any promises you've made. Currently you can only promise a title reign. This adds a boost based on the title's status (low, medium, main event) Then it looks to see if the wrestler has a money/debt issue. If they do, you get a bonus to hiring them, because they need your money. I got this idea because I read someplace that it's part of the reason Ric Flair kept working for so long...and it seemed sort of realistic. If you need money, you're less likely to be picky about where it's coming from. Then it takes into account the time you're looking to hire them. Too short or too long will add a negative modifier. Right now the "sweet spot" is determined randomly every time you talk to them, and while not entirely realistic, this probably won't change. The sweet spot doesn't give any positive modifiers, but it avoids any negative modifiers. Then it adds all that together and if it's above 1.25 the wrestler agrees to the contract. I haven't even TOUCHED a wrestler quitting yet, because until this morning, I haven't even had a match engine in place to run a card.
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Post by Carlzilla on Jul 12, 2013 13:48:22 GMT -5
One other question:
How many of your run "universes"? Like you run more than one federation and have them interact with one another?
I'm thinking of limiting this to one promotion per instance. You can still run unlimited promotions by installing to several directories, but they wouldn't be able to interact with one another.
You'd essential have like this:
BASE DIRECTORY |->Circuit 1 |-------->Program |-------->Data |->Circuit 2 |-------->Program |-------->Data
ETC.
This would make programming a lot easier on me, but I can go the other route if enough people think it's worth it.
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Post by JoshiQ on Jul 12, 2013 14:03:11 GMT -5
I really don't see it being worth the extra hassle. That's just my opinion though. People can just refrain from hiring the same wrestlers that are currently working for the other circuit if need be.
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Post by theimpalertmx on Jul 12, 2013 14:37:32 GMT -5
It's been a while since I've checked in, but I'm glad to see someone trying to make something new work. I just have something to say regarding star ratings. This was something I've thought of myself as I've been trying to figure out my own way to create something to replace TNM to fuel my habit. So, I was thinking of tying a wrestler's work rate to a sort of maximum limit. So, and all these values I'm pulling out are relatively arbitrary, let's think of a wrestler whose work rate is 80. You'd have a corresponding value to the best possible match that person could have. For simplicity's sake, let's say work rate is a percentage so the highest possible star rating this person could have would be ****. Then you have to factor in an opponent. We'll create another wrestler with a 70 work rate so his maximum is ***1/2. These ratings represent a wrestler giving 100% effort, so they would would be more likely to combine to a lower value then simply splitting the difference.
Now, that scale is not very practical, I realize. That's where you kind of have to create something similar to baseball's "Wins Above Replacement," except instead of wins we are looking for match quality. You know, you have to do something to establish the difference between a wrestler with an 80 workrate and one with, say, 20. Is a the "average" backyarder more or less than a 20? What about an "average" WWE diva? That's kind of taking an absolute route. You could take a more relative route by adding in the wrestling style to the formula.
So, that was just my thinking on it. If I had any idea as to how to actually do it, trust me, I'd be doing it. The main takeaway though is getting someway to quantify a wrestler's maximum ability and combine that with some function of what the average ability is.
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Post by Carlzilla on Jul 12, 2013 14:38:35 GMT -5
WRESTLER EDITOR! Should be available by the end of the weekend. Then you can start making wrestlers for me to test things with.
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Post by Carlzilla on Jul 12, 2013 14:43:06 GMT -5
It's been a while since I've checked in, but I'm glad to see someone trying to make something new work. I just have something to say regarding star ratings. This was something I've thought of myself as I've been trying to figure out my own way to create something to replace TNM to fuel my habit. So, I was thinking of tying a wrestler's work rate to a sort of maximum limit. So, and all these values I'm pulling out are relatively arbitrary, let's think of a wrestler whose work rate is 80. You'd have a corresponding value to the best possible match that person could have. For simplicity's sake, let's say work rate is a percentage so the highest possible star rating this person could have would be ****. Then you have to factor in an opponent. We'll create another wrestler with a 70 work rate so his maximum is ***1/2. These ratings represent a wrestler giving 100% effort, so they would would be more likely to combine to a lower value then simply splitting the difference. Now, that scale is not very practical, I realize. That's where you kind of have to create something similar to baseball's "Wins Above Replacement," except instead of wins we are looking for match quality. You know, you have to do something to establish the difference between a wrestler with an 80 workrate and one with, say, 20. Is a the "average" backyarder more or less than a 20? What about an "average" WWE diva? That's kind of taking an absolute route. You could take a more relative route by adding in the wrestling style to the formula. So, that was just my thinking on it. If I had any idea as to how to actually do it, trust me, I'd be doing it. The main takeaway though is getting someway to quantify a wrestler's maximum ability and combine that with some function of what the average ability is. To be quite honest, that's pretty much nail on the head as far as how I was going to work match ratings. There are styles, and they do effect match ratings, as well as some randomness, and some other factors, so it's not quite as absolute as two 100 workrate guys will always get *****, and in some cases with boosts and whatnot, it'll be possible for guys with less than 100 workrates to get a ***** match, but overall your idea of percent and averages is pretty much what I was going to use.
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Post by snabbit888 on Jul 12, 2013 15:00:09 GMT -5
As long as there is some other factors in there. Because sometimes just magic happens and you get a ***** match out of a guy who isn't known for it. Like Punk vs. Cena MITB '11 is a perfect example. Based on impaler's thoughts, since it's Cena, it would be impossible for him to EVER get a ***** match, whereas that real life match showed it is indeed possible. So, I assume there will be other factors thrown in as well?
Also, as far as the universes go, I'd say it's a feature that isn't really necessary right now. Perhaps later on if you get extra motivated, it might be a cool thing to see added in, but I think for most of us, just the ability to get one good circuit working is more important. Bells and whistles can be added later if need be.
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Post by vertigo on Jul 12, 2013 15:09:08 GMT -5
For guys quitting, would something like a "Loyalty" attribute work? Total company men like Tommy Dreamer and John Cena would be ranked the highest where as guys who are selfish and notorious for having issues with promoters could have a lower rating.
Furthermore, would be cool to be able to negotiate with a guy before he quits. Money, title shot, a win, a match higher on the card, etc...
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Post by Carlzilla on Jul 12, 2013 15:37:25 GMT -5
Also, as far as the universes go, I'd say it's a feature that isn't really necessary right now. Perhaps later on if you get extra motivated, it might be a cool thing to see added in, but I think for most of us, just the ability to get one good circuit working is more important. Bells and whistles can be added later if need be. Really, it's now or never for this. It would change the infrastructure of how and where the sim loads and saves files tremendously.
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Post by rey619 on Jul 12, 2013 16:03:51 GMT -5
Yeah, no need for universes for me either.
Loyalty attribute could be a good thing, though, and without being a programmer at all, I think it's easy to implement? Again, without finances being a factor, I'm not really sure if there's a point to negotiating contracts though, but it could prevent the next world champion from quitting two weeks before being given the belt - which is a problem I'm sure most of us have had.
Good thing about the Money. I didn't understand why you'd want it included before.
If it's not too late to implement, and more people want it, I have a couple of wishes:
- chemistry/not chemistry = sometimes two wrestlers just have tremendous chemistry, putting on matches far better than they should have. Also the other way around. Sometimes two wrestlers just don't click. This could be completely random, but is probably difficult to convey to the booker?
- backstage problems. Also a random occurence. Two workers getting into a fight or having problems with each other. No specifics given, can be up to the booker. I don't know what effects this may have though. Maybe one or both quits if you don't fire one of them? Maybe their matches suck until one or the other go? Or maybe they just create a killing heat while fighting each other? (e.g. Hardy/Edge)
- reason for no-showing - could be fun for having a reason for no-showing? I'm not sure how difficult this is, but we can probably help with a list to pull random reasons from. Some are valid, others are not. Is it also possible to get the no-shows prior to the show? That would make re-booking easier.
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Post by Carlzilla on Jul 12, 2013 16:30:56 GMT -5
Wrestler Editor link: www.mediafire.com/?sv4h166x14pcsycEventually it'll be incorporated into the sim, but for now, there's the working stand alone wrestler editor. Just unzip to a directory that you want to dedicate to this, and it will save all wrestlers to a "Wrestlers" subdirectory in that folder. Please, post the wrestlers you make with it. It'd be nice to be able to test with guys that aren't Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Bret Hart, and now Harley Race. Please note that the moves you add to the moves section should ONLY be things that you want to see ending matches.
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