|
Post by megatron85 on Dec 3, 2010 8:23:46 GMT -5
Can you build a circuit With:
30 male wrestlers 20 female wrestlers 10 tag teams
5 Titles Heavyweight Title Tag Team Title Crusierweight Title Women's Title Mid-Carder's Title
& Four styles: Sports Entertainment Old School Puroesu Lucha Libre
|
|
|
Post by BeerGeek on Feb 16, 2011 10:06:42 GMT -5
Puroresu technically isn't a style as there are multiple styles within Puroresu itself
Strong Style King's Road Lucharesu
etc
|
|
|
Post by LillaThrilla on Feb 16, 2011 18:33:37 GMT -5
Can you build a circuit With: 30 male wrestlers 20 female wrestlers 10 tag teams 5 Titles Heavyweight Title Tag Team Title Crusierweight Title Women's Title Mid-Carder's Title & Four styles: Sports Entertainment Old School Puroesu Lucha Libre 20 Female wrestlers is probably overkill; you could get away with 10 I think. Likewise, you could probably get away with 8 or fewer tag teams because singles wrestlers would form temporary alliances. Late 90s WCW arguably did this. They had a Women's division (at times), the luchadores, sports entertainment stuff like the nWo, some simpler old school fueds, and a few angles that might be considered puro-esk (ex: Booker T & Chris Benoit's Best Of 7 series for the TV Title involved two guys wrestling as faces, both cheered for by the crowd, both technically skilled, with a focus on the in-ring aspect, and some stiff chops by Benoit). Strong Style King's Road Lucharesu Knowing little about puro, what are the differences in styles? Lucharesu obviously borrows from lucha libre. Strong style is stiff wrestling? No clue what King's Road is...
|
|
Crpls
Midcarder
Posts: 140
|
Post by Crpls on Feb 16, 2011 19:01:20 GMT -5
Lucharesu is a catch-all term used by foreigners to describe the style of various high-flying (and some submission) based indy promotions.
Strong Style is basically New Japan style. Not necessarily "stiff," especially once Hash was gone.
Kings Road is what AJPW style was called, although there's a huge difference between 70/early-mid 80s AJPW and post-UWF existence through the 2000 split.
|
|
|
Post by LillaThrilla on Feb 16, 2011 22:54:05 GMT -5
So what's the style difference between AJPW and NJPW? In terms for someone who has barely ever seen any Japanese wrestling.
|
|
fwaroc
Enhancement Talent
Posts: 31
|
Post by fwaroc on Mar 27, 2011 20:09:16 GMT -5
So what's the style difference between AJPW and NJPW? In terms for someone who has barely ever seen any Japanese wrestling. There's always youtube to do research on. Correct me if I'm wrong: Strong Style - More combat oriented, focus on realism Kings Road - Storyline driven (but not near as much as "sports entertainment") and has more of a linear progression...as the match goes on, stronger holds are used.
|
|
|
Post by theimpalertmx on Mar 28, 2011 23:55:24 GMT -5
More or less. The original strong-style was looking at professional wrestling as the greatest martial art. That was the premise behind the Inoki vs. fighters of other disciplines like the "bout" between him and Ali.
King's Road is just a term to explain the evolution of wrestling in Japan - not really a ton of difference between what the NWA was doing at the same time in the States. There really isn't a whole lot of stylistic difference, especially since the big stars traveled everywhere.
Neither term, at least in their original meaning, really applies to anything going on today. There are guys who fit the mold pretty well and guys who go against it in both promotions (though it is NOAH instead of AJPW since that is the "true" lineage.) Now that most wrestlers will work for just about anyone in Japan the terms are even less relevant. The fact that brawling has been a legitimate focus of NJPW is a testament to that.
Describing lucharesu as a catch-all for "spot-fu" is simplifying it a bit. Lucharesu was born from Japanese workers who were trained in the Japanese junior style of match who went to Mexico and made a synthesis of the two. Gran Hamada's UWF is really where it started and Michinoku Pro carried the torch. That and the original Toryumon is what I would describe as classic lucharesu. Dragon Gate, while obviously a direct result of the style, has really evolved into something that goes beyond that.
All that said I really hate trying to fit every promotion into a certain genre, much like I do with music. Everything has its influences, but once it starts to establish itself it becomes organic and takes on a life on its own. A understanding of these fundamental styles is required if you really want to break down pro wrestling as an art, but in the end you ultimately decided what you like and what you don't. I think that is the draw for most of us who use TNM, even as outdated as the actual match "engine" is; you are given the power to create something that you would enjoy from top to bottom. It is nice to be able to articulate why you like the things that you do, but the most important part is just to enjoy yourself.
I know I went a little off course there, but I think there is some worth to it as far as TNM goes. You want to make a rule set or a circuit idea, then just go for it. Chances are there is someone around who is on your same wavelength and will give it a whirl themselves.
|
|
plutar
Enhancement Talent
Posts: 12
|
Post by plutar on Mar 29, 2011 0:20:49 GMT -5
I always understood strong-style as a genre of wrestling popular in All Japan that builds on each match ending to tell an overarching story between tough guys who no-sell and counter awesome finishers.
|
|
|
Post by theimpalertmx on Mar 29, 2011 12:55:21 GMT -5
That is strictly a United States-based indy interpretation of the style and is really a misunderstanding of what Japanese wrestling is/was about. True strong-style has nothing to with All Japan or NOAH; it started with Inoki and was strictly a NJPW thing. I think there are certain qualities that embodied strong-style that were shared by both promotions (NJPW and AJPW, that is). Things like not backing down and showing the fighting spirit are instrinsic to Japanese culture so it only makes sense that those qualities are carried over into their wrestling. The fighting spirit, "toukon retsuden," became an integral part of the NJPW strong style. I suppose you can view it as two definitions that both fit the meaning of toughness In NJPW you displayed your toughness by being aggressive and taking the fight to the opponent, no matter how badly they have been kicking your ass. AJPW toughness was more about resilience, prolonging the match for as long as possible. Both are legitimate representations of displaying toughness.
To really see what both styles are/were I think you need a sufficient amount of knowledge about Japanese culture. I don't know if the above was said as a sarcastic remark, but the point still stands that most wrestlers outside of Japan watch it and mimic things because they look cool. Very few actually understand the context relative to Japanese culture. It takes either doing the research or actually going there to understand. And let's face it, most pro wrestlers are not the type of guys who are going to partake in anthropologic research on their own volition. That would cut into their time at the gym and their night life.
|
|
Crpls
Midcarder
Posts: 140
|
Post by Crpls on Mar 30, 2011 0:18:55 GMT -5
It has nothing to do with Japanese culture. That's utter horseshit and is just as much as a Western fantasy interpretation as any other. Wrestling in Japan is as much about business as in America and 90s AJPW has nothing to do with "culture." It's Baba being a smart businessman.
AJPW in the 70s and early 80s would be labeled as SPORTZ ENTERTAINMENT by every ROH fan/smark in America. Their big matches were inevitably going to be screwy finishes, double countouts, regular countouts, etc. They even did it finals of their big tournaments. It was based around Baba and furriners vs natives. It conveniently changed when they got a boatload of workrate guys like Jumbo going into his prime, Misawa, Kawada, Hansen, plus the UWF becoming insanely popular with it's "realism" and the guys it caused NJPW to lose and jump briefly to AJPW (especially Chosyu.) Baba de-emphasized himself, got over the evil foreigner stuff and pushed workrate. If UWF fails, Choshu doesn't jump, if Jumbo sucked, the 90s may have never happened like they did.
|
|
Crpls
Midcarder
Posts: 140
|
Post by Crpls on Mar 30, 2011 0:34:04 GMT -5
Main point: Nobody would be talking about "resilience" or Japanese culture if Dr. Death, Terry Gordy and Stan Hansen were stabbing Jumbo, Tenryu, Misawa, etc with forks or blowing fire in their face, instead of killing each other with head drops and other assorted "stiff" moves.
|
|
Crpls
Midcarder
Posts: 140
|
Post by Crpls on Mar 30, 2011 0:39:50 GMT -5
Inoki was also a smart businessman.... as long as it involved Takada invading NJPW.
|
|
|
Post by theimpalertmx on Mar 30, 2011 3:17:29 GMT -5
Of course their primary goal was to make money... that's the reason you run any business. I'm simply talking about the styles that each came to be known for and there is definitely a cultural aspect to each. Was it anything more than a gimmick used to exploit its fanbase? Not to those who were producing it. It was the mechanism that worked the whole machine. How about the audience, though? My understanding of the cultural aspects of pro wrestling in Japan is greatly influenced by someone who was there as most of this all happened... you know, an actual Japanese person who has been a fan for over thirty years.... and I'm pretty sure he has always been Japanese. Much of what I described above is based on his own experiences and observations that he has shared with me over the time that I have known him. I'm not saying this to discredit anything you said as there isn't much I disagree with you on what you said. I'm simply stating that it is more than just my own romance with puroresu.
|
|