TNM Circuits without TNM

[bobversion1]

With TNM getting harder and harder to run on newer computers, does anyone run circuits without TNM?

For instance, I read somewhere that someone uses dice etc.. Any suggestions on how to run a good circuit without using TNM?

[fwaroc]

There are some dice and card games out there but I've never found them to be interesting enough to pursue a fed with.

Easiest thing to do would be to find an old desktop or laptop computer somewhere. You can usually get a decent P2 or P3 for around 30 to 50 bucks if you look hard enough. If you don't have a store nearby, you can also ask businesses what they do with their old equipment. Also check schools. A bunch of kids will be happy to sell you theirs quite cheap.

[theimpalertmx]

There is always Fire Pro. It has it's limitations, too, especially with the newest version being from 2005 (Fire Pro Wrestling Returns on PS2). There is also a lot more detail that goes into making a wrestler, but the more effort you put in, the more satisfying your results. And you have slots to create 500(!!!) wrestlers added to the initial roster of 350+ real wrestlers (under fake names, mind you). There is also a dedicated community to the game, and the whole series for that matter, to offer you guidance, insight, and packs of their own created wrestlers. The PS2 US version only sold for $20 when it was released, so I can imagine you can get it dirt cheap nowadays. It's the only reason I even still have my PS2.

[KWOAOA]

I know I've always complained about things with windows 7 but I have came across a nifty little program
dfendreloaded.sourceforge.net/
it helps ya run TNM, it's better than just DosBox cause it still uses it but you don't have to input any code.

[fwaroc]

I've never used TNM with DosBox...what does it do to not make it compatible?

[snabbit888]

Only thing I've noticed with DOSBox is that you can't run the Windows based plugins.

[bobversion1]

May 29, 2012 19:45:56 GMT -5 snabbit888 said:

Only thing I've noticed with DOSBox is that you can't run the Windows based plugins.

When I tried to run it in Dos Box, it crawled at a horrible pace.. I tried speeding it up but it didn't seem to do anything.. Now I did not try it with build 6, because I couldn't extract build 6.. Not sure if that would help and if so, how I can get it to extract on a 64 bit windows 7..

[KWOAOA]

That info is found here:
www.tnm7.de/cgi-bin/rmcms.cgi?page=win64

may i recommend trying the program I mentioned above, its nicer to use

[bobversion1]

I appreciate information, unfortunately, when I downloaded the build 6, when I tried extracting the files from it, it said it couldn't extract because it is on a 64-bit system..

I'll try your other method tomorrow, sounds interesting..

[rey619]

I got the Chikara Card Game from Filsinger Games, but it was really not that interesting.

As I've mentioned before, creating some sort of dice simulator rules for TNM is on my to do-list, but it will probably only be for those booking every match on every show.

The dice rolls will be for random no-shows, injuries, star rating and that sort of things.

[bobversion1]

May 30, 2012 4:26:17 GMT -5 rey619 said:

I got the Chikara Card Game from Filsinger Games, but it was really not that interesting.

As I've mentioned before, creating some sort of dice simulator rules for TNM is on my to do-list, but it will probably only be for those booking every match on every show.

The dice rolls will be for random no-shows, injuries, star rating and that sort of things.

This is what I am looking for... I'm thinking of getting various sided dice for various aspects of matches, situations etc... Any ideas would be awesome..

By the way, I wasn't looking for actual card/dice games based on wrestling.. Just a way to run a fed like TNM without TNM..

[rey619]

I've had various ideas in my head for some time, so sooner or later, I'll probably get the time to sort them out. The biggest problem is probably to define what I will include and not. I don't want it to become to complex. I'll probably make two versions - one light and one a little heavier.

Out of curiosity, what aspects of TNM would you like to have included/simulated/randomized?

No-shows? Injuries? The talent hiring process? Economy? Crowd size?

[bobversion1]

Jun 19, 2012 3:15:49 GMT -5 rey619 said:

I've had various ideas in my head for some time, so sooner or later, I'll probably get the time to sort them out. The biggest problem is probably to define what I will include and not. I don't want it to become to complex. I'll probably make two versions - one light and one a little heavier.

Out of curiosity, what aspects of TNM would you like to have included/simulated/randomized?

No-shows? Injuries? The talent hiring process? Economy? Crowd size?

All of the above honestly... Maybe gimmick matches, how someone wins or loses, length of match, etc..

[LillaThrilla]

As an occasional amateur/wannbe game designer, let me put my thinking cap on for this and throw some ideas out there (read: brainstorming).

First off, we can look to TNM7, the TNM-MP rules, and some of the TNM7 plugins for basic ideas.

Terminology for the less geeky:
D6 is 6-sided dice; 2D6 is a pair of 6-sided dice
D3 is a 3-sided dice (or a D6 counting 1-2, 3-4, and 5-6 as results)
D100 is a pair of D10s

Or just use a random number generator - www.random.org/

Hiring Process
TNM-MP has a simple but good system which I will copy & paste here with slight edits:

Free Agents are wrestlers that do not currently wrestle in a major or minor. Each circuit may attempt to hire up to 4 wrestlers per week.

Any circuit may also attempt to sign wrestlers already under contract with an indy circuit. Major/Minors gain exclusive use to an indy wrestler they successfully sign. Indys that sign wrestlers from other indys may only use that wrestler on days of the week that their other indys do not run a show.

To decide if a wrestler will join the circuit you need to roll a D6 and add some modifiers to it:

Circuit Type Modifiers:
+2 wanted by a Major
+1 wanted by a Minor
+0 wanted by an Indy

Roster Size Modifiers
-1 40 or more wrestlers already in circuit
-2 50 or more wrestlers already in circuit
-3 60 or more wrestlers already in circuit

Nationality Modifier
+1 wanted by a circuit from own country (ex: Japanese wrestler wanted by a Japanese circuit)

Competition Modifier
+1 The wrestler was just fired by, released by, or quit from a rival major/minor.
(ex: TNA signing someone just released by WWE)

The President will roll a normal D6 and add or subtract any modifiers as appropriate. If the result is a 5 or higher then the he joins the circuit. A roll of 1 always fails before any modifiers.

Each circuit may also attempt to bring in 1 new non-wrestler talent each week (manager, valet, announcer, etc).

Attendance
We can use some of the basic stuff from the Arena plugin, which I will try to recall here.

You need at least three things:

1) Arena size, which can be generalized into some broad categories which is I think what Arena plugin does. It was basically bingo hall, high school gym, civic center, arena, stadium.

2) Circuit size, which can be generalized into some broad categories as per TNM-MP: major, minor, big indy, small indy. MP only used one indy category, but technically someone might run a really small local indy.

3) show size: house show (any non-televised show), TV taping, live TV, PPV.

So you need to multiple 1, 2, and 3 plus a random factor that will result in tiny attendance (100 or less?) for a small indy running a non-TV show in a bingo hall yet also tens of thousands for a major running a PPV in a stadium.

Probably also include a few attendance bonuses like:
mega PPVs (ex: Wrestlemania)
"hot period" (ex: running a WWF circuit circa 2000)
hometown hero (ex: show is in the hometown of the circuit's champion)

Wrestler Stats
Before we can determine who wins a match we need to give wrestlers certain attributes. We could use the exact same 4 stats used by TNM7, but I would make a few changes and simplifications.

Workrate: reflects purely their in-ring talent
5 = excellent (Benoit)
4 = good (Cena, Rock)
3 = average (most WWE guys today)
2 = bad
1 = awful (most WWE Divas, Jake Roberts wrestling while drunk)

Push: how often they win
5 = main eventer
3 = midcarder
1 = jobber to the stars (JTTS)
0 = jobber

Charisma: drawing heat, both cutting promos and in-ring charisma
5 = he shows up on TV and crowd instantly goes bonkers (Rock, Austin)
4 = hot
3 = over
2 = not over
1 = no heat
+1 hometown bonus (if show is in the wrestler's hometown)

There would need to be some kind of roll after interviews/matches to see if a wrestler's Charisma has gone up or down (this would be rare, but possible; 5 would be really hard to achieve).

Stamina: how long before they are gassed
5 = can go an hour and be fine
4 = above average
3 = average
2 = Ultimate Warrior (gasses easily, but can last with proper pacing)
1 = super fatass

Abilities/Modifiers:
Erratic / Spot Monkey: randomize workrate each match; may go -1, +0, or +1
IWC/Smark Darling: wrestler gets +1 Charisma in smarky cities (Philly, Long Island)
Champion: +1 Push if the wrestler holds a title

Who Wins:
Push + D3 for each wrestler/team
Highest number wins.
Tiebreaker #1 = highest Push.
Tiebreaker #2 = champion.
Still tied = match is a draw

How wins: Roll a D6
4-6 = via finisher (randomize if multiple finishers)
3 = via non-finishing move
2 = DQ
1 = countout

If a match participant is in a feud with another wrestler not involved in the current match, -1 to this roll (i.e. outside interference).

If the match loser has the Coward ability, roll an extra D6. If either D6 is a 1, the Coward loses the match via Countout (he walked out of the match). Otherwise, discard the result of the extra dice.

(This could and probably should use a D100 chart for a more extensive system of possible results, but this is just a quickie version.)

Match Rating:
Some combination of average Workrate, average Charisma, match length (longer matches generally better; max rating based on length), match length vs stamina (exceed your stamina and rating goes down because you're gassed), and a random factor. Desired result would be 0-5 (i.e. DUD to 5 star classic). Probably 2D6 (average the result, thus possible 1/2 stars) +/- modifiers.

No Shows
Before a match, roll 2D6 for each wrestler. If you roll double 1's then the wrestler no-shows.

For a wrestler with the Unreliable ability, roll only 1 D6 when making their no-show roll (roll of a 1 = no show).

Injuries
After each match, make a D6 Injury Roll for each participant. Roll of 1 = injury.

Roll a D100 for each injured wrestler. If their opponent has the Sloppy Worker attribute, add +5 to the roll. Add the injured wrestler's Injury Prone stat to the roll. (Most wrestlers will start with an Injury Prone stat of +0.) Add +10 if the wrestler was injured on their first show back from a real injury.

1-5 = just bruised; misses any subsequent matches that show.
5-9 = kayfabe injury; can't wrestle for 1 week
10-14 = kayfabe injury; can't wrestle for 1 month
15-19 = kayfabe injury; can't wrestle for 3 months
20-24 = kayfabe injury; can't wrestle for 6 months
25-29 = real injury; can't wrestle for 1 week
30-34 = real injury; can't wrestle for 2 weeks
35-39 = real injury; can't wrestle for 1 month
40-45 = real injury; can't wrestle for 2 months
46-49 = real injury; can't wrestle for 3 months
50-54 = real injury; can't wrestle for 4 months & +1 Injury Prone stat
55-59 = real injury; can't wrestle for 5 months & +1 Injury Prone stat
60-64 = real injury; can't wrestle for 6 months & +2 Injury Prone stat
65-69 = real injury; can't wrestle for 7 months & +2 Injury Prone stat
70-74 = real injury; can't wrestle for 8 months & +2 Injury Prone stat
75-79 = real injury; can't wrestle for 9 months & +5 Injury Prone stat
80-84 = real injury; can't wrestle for 10 months & +5 Injury Prone stat
85-89 = real injury; can't wrestle for 11 months & +5 Injury Prone stat
90-95 = real injury; can't wrestle for 1 year & +10 Injury Prone stat
96-98 = real injury; career ending
99 = real injury; crippled
100 = real injury; died

[fwaroc]

You need to start a new thread for this. Do you mind if I steal some of your ideas and tweak it?

[rey619]

Lots of good ideas here Josh. I can give a more in-debt response at a better time.

However, injuries happening 1 in every 6 match and no-shows happening once every 18 match is a little high in my opinion.

I would probably go for a 2d10 roll and hitting snake eyes would be an injury/no-show.

[fwaroc]

This is what I have so far. Like Lilla, this is still in brainstorm mode. I haven't playtested it yet.

It's based on an old engine that I used back before I used TNM7 but it was a really good quick and simple engine. It's a modified version of the Quick Game.


----


For these rules you will need two 10-sided dice of different colors or a way to differentiate between the two dice.

QUICK GAME

Assign one die to be Wrestler 1 and the other to be wrestler 2
Determine the match modifier for each wrestler based on their push. For every 10 push points higher than his opponent, that wrestler gets a +1 modifer to their score up to +8.

Roll each wrestlers die, and add the modifer for the higher pushed wrestler.

The winner is the wrestler with the highest score. If both wrestlers tie scores, the match is determined to be a draw.

EXCEPTION: If the wrestler rolls a 0 on the d10, that wrestler automatically loses regardless of the modifier.

BASIC RULES

SECTION I - Creating a wrestler

Each wrestler is assigned a skill with a value of 1 to 100 and a category. For the BASIC rules ignore the numerical values. We will only focus on the categories here.

Work Rate
Work rate is the actual skill of the wrestler. Work rate is assigned to 5 categories:
1) Minimal (0-20)
2) Passable (21-40)
3) Average (41-60)
4) Impressive (61-80)
5) Dedicated (81-100)

Push
Each wrestler is assigned a Push Class. They give a true advantage for one wrestler over another. Push Classes are designated in 5 categories
1) Jobber (0=20)
2) Local/Indy (21-40)
3) Development/Undercarder (41-60)
4) Mid-carders (61-80)
5) Main eventers (81-100)

Charisma
Wrestlers with high charisma draw more fans and increase match rating values. They know how to put on a show whether it is in the ring, on the mic or doing interviews.
1) Unknown (0=20)
2) Boring (21-40)
3) Neutral (41-60)
4) Good (61-80)
5) Star Power (81-100)

Stamina
Stamina determines the amount of damage a wrestler can receive before taking a fall. Even dishing out the punishment can wear down a wrestler and lower their stamina as the match progresses.
1) Weak (0=20)
2) Low (21-40)
3) Normal (41-60)
4) High (61-80)
5) Healthy (81-100)

Finisher – The name of the move that the wrestler prefers to end the match with. For the BASIC rules, this will have no bearing on the match itself, and is for illustrative purposes only.

Preferred Alignment – Whether your wrestler will want to enter the league as a face or heel, and how they will react when doing turns. This will only affect the rules for hiring a wrestler in the BASIC rules.

SECTION II – CIRCUITS

Circuits have 5 categories:
1) Training
2) Local
3) Regional
4) National
5) International

When hiring a wrestler, you will have to take into consideration the category of the circuit you have in order to hire a wrestler. A wrestler that is an international superstar will less likely to join a regional or statewide circuit than they would a national or international circuit. Also, if there are too many wrestlers or too many with the same style or alignment as that wrestler, they will be less likely to join.

To negotiate a contract with a wrestler roll a d10, treating a 0 as a 10 then adjust for any modifers

-1 for every 5 wrestlers of the same alignment
-1 if your circuit is 1 level below the wrestler's charisma
-2 if your circuit is 2 levels below the wrestler's charisma
-4 if your circuit is 3 levels below the wrestler's charisma
-6 if your circuit is 4 levels below the wrestler's charisma

Roll (Result)
0 (Wrestler will refuse to negotiate a contract for 1 year)
1 (Wrestler will not sign for 1d10 months)
2-4 Wrestler is not interested at this time. Next attempt in 1d10/2 months.
5 Wrestler would be interested in a 13 card contract but will take 2 roster spots* worth of money to sign.
6 Wrestler would be interested in a 26 card contract but will take 2 roster spots* worth of money to sign.
7 Wrestler will be happy to sign a 6 card contract
8 Wrestler will be happy to sign a 13 card contract
9 Wrestler will be happy to sign a 26 card contract
10 Wrestler will be happy to sign a 52 card contract

Roster spots will essentially count 2 or 3 times towards your total roster.

SECTION III – COMBAT

Assign a d10 to each wrestler and roll to determine the initial score. This roll will also determine the length of the match. Add the values of the two dice together. If one of the dice is a 0 then double the other die. If both dice are 0, this will be considered a time limit draw regardless of any modifiers.

Time of the fall

As the match goes deeper into the time limit, wrestlers will receive a bonus or penalty based on their stamina. Add the following modifiers to the wrestlers' scores.

Take the value of the dice added together and subtract from 20 then multiply that result by 5. That is the percentage of the time limit that had expired when the fall occurred.

(20 – die1 – die 2) * 5

Eg. a 9 and 8 are rolled with a 20 minute time limit. 20-9 = 11 – 8 = 3 x 5 = 15 thus the match ended at 15% of the time limit or 3:00.

Eg2. A 3 and 0 are rolled with a 60 minute time limit. 20-3 = 17. Because a 0 was rolled, we subtract the 3 again thus 17-3=14 x 5 = 70. As a result 70% or 42 minutes of the 60 minute time limit had expired when the fall occurred.

The time of the fall will not change if any of the dice are rerolled.

Work Rate Modifiers

If a wrestler rolls a zero, they keep that score, otherwise add the advantage modifer based on the difference of the work rate below:
Work Rate Difference
Same category (0)
One category higher (+1)
Two categories higher (+2)
Three categories higher (+4)
Four categories higher (+6)

OPTIONAL: Champions receive a bonus +2 to work rate modifiers.

Stamina modifiers

As the match goes along, advantage modifiers will lose points. Use the following table to make adjustments to the work rate modifier:
Stamina Level 1: For every 5 minutes of time -1
Stamina Level 2: For every 10 minutes of time -1
Stamina Level 3: For every 15 minutes of time -1
Stamina Level 4: For every 20 minutes of time -1
Stamina Level 5: For every 30 minutes of time -1

Push Difference Rerolls

If the wrestler with the lower push has a score greater than the wrestler with the higher push then they have the opportunity to reroll either die or a combination of both a number of times based on the chart below. The rolls would still follow the same rules as above.

Push Difference (Number Of Rerolls)
Same category (No rerolls)
One category higher (1)
Two categories higher (2)
Three categories higher (4)
Four categories higher (6)

OPTIONAL: Champions receive two bonus rerolls if the title is on the line. One bonus reroll if it is not.

For example if Wrestler A has a push of 95 and Wrestler B has a push of 20, Wrestler A rolls a 3 with a +4 Work Rate Modifier and Wrestler B rolls a 9. Wrestler A looks up on the chart and sees the push rating is 75 points greater. Wrestler A may elect to reroll any die combination up to 6 times. Wrestler A chooses to reroll the 3. Wrestler A does so twice eventually getting a 4 with a +4 modifier giving a total score of 8. Wrestler A then elects to reroll the opponent's 9 with the 4 remaining rerolls.

Determining the results

If the match would have been won without the use of work rate modifiers or rerolls, use the chart below to determine how the match ended. However, add the work rate modifer to the difference.
Difference (Result)
1 (Quick pin – Roll up, inside cradle, small package, etc.)
2 (Non-finishing move)
3-6 (Finisher)
7 (Finisher – Very little offense from opponent)
8+ (Finisher – Squash match)

If the match was won with having to use modifiers or rerolls use the chart below:
Difference (Result)
1 (Roll d10: Odd: Quick pin – Roll up, inside cradle, small package, etc. Even: DQ)
2-3 (Roll d10: Odd: DQ Even: Countout)
4-5 (Non-Finisher)
5+ (Finisher)

If the match was a draw, use the table below:
1-3 each (Time Limit draw override match length roll)
4-8 each (Roll d10 – odd: double countout, even: double DQ)
9 each (Match thrown out – No contest)

(Optional) Tag team rules

Determine which wrestler was in the ring at the time of the fall by rolling a d10. Assign the wrestlers of a team in the alphabetical order of their first name (ignore articles such as 'The'). If the roll is odd, then the wrestler that came first alphabetically was in the ring at the time of the fall. If it is even, use the second wrestler. Use the combat rules for singles matches to determine the result.

Eg. Bob & Steve take on The Jobber and William
Bob would be wrestler 1 for his tag team, and Steve would be wrestler 2 in determining who would be odd and who would be even.
The same would go for The Jobber and William since T comes before W.
Bob and Steve roll a 6 meaning that Steve would be in the ring at the time of the fall.
The Jobber and William roll a 1 meaning The Jobber would be in the ring for his team at the time of the fall.
Afterwards, treat this as a standard singles match between Steve and The Jobber.

[rey619]

Fwaroc:

I have a comment about this:

Push
Each wrestler is assigned a Push Class. They give a true advantage for one wrestler over another. Push Classes are designated in 5 categories
1) Jobber (0=20)
2) Local/Indy (21-40)
3) Development/Undercarder (41-60)
4) Mid-carders (61-80)
5) Main eventers (81-100)

Nr 2 is something quite different than the other 4 items, because it describes in what part of the industry the worker works in, not how the company he works for, sees him.

If you use push as an absolute value to designate how well-known he is in the industry (Reputation may be a better term), you need to change the definition of the other 4 items. I mean, Independent and local promotions have main eventers and undercarders too.

[gentlemanjeff]

I'd be down with developing something. I book my cards, would love to have something that could simulate TNM's range of contracts, injuries, no-shows, and other little quirks.

It seems redundant when I have TNM, but I've been de-duping 100+ moves and am kind of sick of the DosBox-based limitations.

Plus I love me some rollin' dice.

[gentlemanjeff]

ALSO: Star ratings. I have a formula in Excel that works pretty well, but way too complicated for dice.

[fwaroc]

Jun 21, 2012 3:45:23 GMT -5 rey619 said:

Fwaroc:

I have a comment about this:

Nr 2 is something quite different than the other 4 items, because it describes in what part of the industry the worker works in, not how the company he works for, sees him.

If you use push as an absolute value to designate how well-known he is in the industry (Reputation may be a better term), you need to change the definition of the other 4 items. I mean, Independent and local promotions have main eventers and undercarders too.

So split Development and Undercard perhaps. Make Development 2, Undercard 3?

[rey619]

I'm going to steal unabashedly from a competing wrestling sim now, but eh..

1) Enhancement Talent
2) Lowcarder
3) Midcarder
4) Upper midcarder
5) Main Eventer