Flying?

[LillaThrilla]

Going off the a fresh copy of TNM7SE I'm working on, I looked at all the "flying" moves in the default moves database and what moves actually had "wrestler can be thrown off turnbuckle" checked.

FLYING = TOP ROPE MOVE
flying axhandle
flying bodypress (combined with flying splash)
flying bulldog
flying cross body press
flying double foot stomp
flying dropkick
flying elbowdrop
flying fistdrop
flying headbutt
flying karate chop
flying kneedrop
flying lariat
flying legdrop
flying senton
flying shoulderblock
flying sitdown splash
flying somersault bodyblock
flying somersault headbutt
flying somersault legdrop
flying somersault splash
flying spinning leg lariat
flying Tomahawk

FLYING BUT NOT TOP ROPE
flying armdrag
flying clothesline
flying forearm
flying headscissors
flying hip attack
flying (huracan)rana
flying sunset flip

Thoughts on the correctness of this?

I'm thinking flying headscissors, flying rana, and flying sunset flip should be top rope moves. No idea about armdrags of a flying/jumping/leaping variety.

I suspect there will be some disagreement on flying shoulderblock being off the top rope as well...

[JoshiQ]

I always thought a diving shoulderblock was when you both were on the mat and a flying shoulderblock was when someone came off the top rope.

Isn't a rana always flying? So it would only make sense to call a move a flying rana if it was off the top rope. I prefer a top rope rana to be honest over either though.

The sunset flip has to be a top rope move, otherwise it's just a sunset flip. I'll take a closer look later, but those were the ones that really stuck out at me.

[theimpalertmx]

You know, it would be a heck of a lot easier if you used the conventions of Japanese move naming (and pretty much the rest of the international wrestling scene). "Diving" refers to any move done from the top turnbuckle. "Flying" is any move that is done while jumping or leaping (and hence implies that the regular version of the move does not require the person to jump). There are so many redundancies that this would fix. For example, bodypress and splash are the same thing and yet you often see both of them in the move database. So just take the standard bodypress...

- Diving Bodypress = Attacker on turnbuckle, opponent on mat (note: the opponent can be standing or lying down.
- Flying Bodypress = Jumping splash used by every fat guy that results in a pin attempt (and this is important because...)
- Bodypress = A normal pinfall cover (aka lateral press)

This is the type of standardization I'd like to see applied for the export community. I know you guys have already done a lot in trying to clean up move databases, but that is never going to fix the problem entirely. It doesn't necessarily have to be all international conventions, just as long as consistency after an agreement has been made. For example, I probably would use "vertical suplex" over "brainbuster," which is what the Japanese call it. Most TNM users have those two things being pictured as different moves and you should probably stick to what is familiar.

[jacklarkin]

Jun 1, 2011 15:09:41 GMT -5 theimpalertmx said:

You know, it would be a heck of a lot easier if you used the conventions of Japanese move naming (and pretty much the rest of the international wrestling scene). "Diving" refers to any move done from the top turnbuckle. "Flying" is any move that is done while jumping or leaping (and hence implies that the regular version of the move does not require the person to jump). There are so many redundancies that this would fix. For example, bodypress and splash are the same thing and yet you often see both of them in the move database. So just take the standard bodypress...

- Diving Bodypress = Attacker on turnbuckle, opponent on mat (note: the opponent can be standing or lying down.
- Flying Bodypress = Jumping splash used by every fat guy that results in a pin attempt (and this is important because...)
- Bodypress = A normal pinfall cover (aka lateral press)

This is the type of standardization I'd like to see applied for the export community. I know you guys have already done a lot in trying to clean up move databases, but that is never going to fix the problem entirely. It doesn't necessarily have to be all international conventions, just as long as consistency after an agreement has been made. For example, I probably would use "vertical suplex" over "brainbuster," which is what the Japanese call it. Most TNM users have those two things being pictured as different moves and you should probably stick to what is familiar.

re: Flying bodypress
That is what I would call when a wrestler leaps from a running start at his opponent who is also standing, and the momentum causes him to bodypress his opponent to the ground.
if the opponent is already on the ground I would call that a "splash" of some sort.

Isn't a brainbuster in theory when you bring your opponent pretty much straight down, so he lands on his head/neck...thus the name "brainbuster". Whereas a vertical suplex the opponent pretty much lands on his back.

The brainbuster bothered me because back in the day, Blackjack Lanza used a brainbuster finisher as basically grinding his knuckle into your temple. It was made even more vicious because he had the audacity to where a leather glove! Now I have been told that move is a "noogie" (sp) or an atomic noogie? Hardly does the Blackjack justice.

[LillaThrilla]

Jun 2, 2011 15:39:15 GMT -5 jacklarkin said:

re: Flying bodypress
That is what I would call when a wrestler leaps from a running start at his opponent who is also standing, and the momentum causes him to bodypress his opponent to the ground.
if the opponent is already on the ground I would call that a "splash" of some sort.

I would call that a cross body block.

As long as I've been using TNM, I thought flying splash = flying bodypress. FWIW a default copy of TNM7SE lists the counter to a flying bodypress as a roll away so it would seem at least in TNM it is pretty much the same.

Jun 2, 2011 15:39:15 GMT -5 jacklarkin said:

Isn't a brainbuster in theory when you bring your opponent pretty much straight down, so he lands on his head/neck...thus the name "brainbuster". Whereas a vertical suplex the opponent pretty much lands on his back.

Yeah there's a weird issue with vertical suplex vs brain buster. In the US, a brainbuster drops down on the head and a vertical suplex falls back all the way. In Japan, what we call a brainbuster they call a vertical brainbuster and what we call a vertical suplex is called a brainbuster. (I assume because a vertical suplex in the US is a back bump, but in Japan it's a head bump? Because the Japanese seem to have an obsession with sick head bumps.)

[LillaThrilla]

Jun 1, 2011 15:09:41 GMT -5 theimpalertmx said:

- Diving Bodypress = Attacker on turnbuckle, opponent on mat (note: the opponent can be standing or lying down.
- Flying Bodypress = Jumping splash used by every fat guy that results in a pin attempt (and this is important because...)
- Bodypress = A normal pinfall cover (aka lateral press)

This is the type of standardization I'd like to see applied for the export community.

The problem is while that is pretty clear it essentially breaks from historic TNM precedent to the point of making old and new exports essentially incompatible for anyone using jumping/flying/diving moves.

Also, taking a move name precedent from Japan for a wrestling program predominately used by Americans/Canadians to run US/Canadian circuits seems to fail to design for your audience. (I've seen more lucha libre circuits than puro circuits in over a decade of TNM.)

I would personally prefer to see:
flying = off the turnbuckle
jumping = jump/leap before doing the move

Because my experience with TNM makes me expect that. There are of course problems like debate on what a flying clothesline should be and a flying forearm is pretty much always referring to a leaping/jumping forearm not one off the turnbuckle. My personal solution at this point is to give flying forearm a free pass for historical useage sake and make every other flying move be off the turnbuckle.

FWIW I'd argue the fat guy jumping splash doesn't need to be separate from a regular splash.

[theimpalertmx]

It doesn't matter to me what the actual convention is. If you used flying and jumping in those two ways that'd be fine. My point is that there needs to be consensus on which is which among those making exports. Yeah, you can't really do anything about older exports, but at least going forward there would be a standard.

And yeah, splash is one of those you wouldn't add jumping to because a regular splash already involves jumping.

There can be a difference between bodypress and cross-body. A (what I will call) diving bodypress can be done to a standing opponent - you just leap on them and fall forward. Cross-body has you going horizontal in the air.

I know I addressed all that in random order. The only real point I was making is coming up with "official" TNM guidelines to making exports so every export that is made in community going forward is consistent. I hate cleaning up my database and then having a new pack of wrestlers get imported that add a bunch of junk. It is constant. I've been trying to make fictional characters to start a circuit with, but I get so frustrated with having to edit moves and make sure I know what I'm talking about. That is mostly what has stopped me from making any of it go forward.

[LillaThrilla]

Jun 2, 2011 16:45:01 GMT -5 theimpalertmx said:

I know I addressed all that in random order. The only real point I was making is coming up with "official" TNM guidelines to making exports so every export that is made in community going forward is consistent. I hate cleaning up my database and then having a new pack of wrestlers get imported that add a bunch of junk. It is constant. I've been trying to make fictional characters to start a circuit with, but I get so frustrated with having to edit moves and make sure I know what I'm talking about. That is mostly what has stopped me from making any of it go forward.

Yeah that was what brought about the whole TNM Export Committee (TEC) that predated TNM7SE which was what created the Moves & Dives Lists I have on TNM 3:16...which the #1 export maker these days (Peter at TNM UK) doesn't completely agree with my list.

What I'm working on right now is taking a brand new copy of TNM7SE, cross-referencing between my existing lists, and when it's all done I should be able to make that version available online for others (if you delete the file in your TNM directory holding the REG codes it should unregister that particular copy and turn it back into a Trial version). It's a looooong project but I'm hammering away at it. Hopefully it will catch on - or at least make life easier for some.